Undead Sleds / Rat Rods Rule - Hot Rods, Rat Rods, Sleepers, Beaters & Bikes... since 2007!

Undead Sleds / Rat Rods Rule - Hot Rods, Rat Rods, Sleepers, Beaters & Bikes... since 2007! (http://ratrodsrule.com/forum/index.php)
-   Power adders! (http://ratrodsrule.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=54)
-   -   Three Strikes and your OUT (http://ratrodsrule.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36573)

PA41 09-14-2017 07:58 AM

Three Strikes and your OUT
 
7 Attachment(s)
I'm doing one more turbo project. Last one I promise. Accel Turbosonic from the 70s (I thought they were older). Covering it in the 'Build' area. Where I'm at now. This was on a 350, but was alittle too much, so I'm setting it up on a 5.0 Ford in hopes of a milder more street friendly lower performance setup. The 5.0 needs some help. It's a 1984 EFI low compression smog motor--a blistering 140 HP. I bought the whole car for $75 with a bad timing chain. $35 later I have a pretty good running donor. Removed the throttle body, put on a GM style Distributer, and a little booster, maybe Ill see 200 hp??

PA41 09-14-2017 08:02 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Has anyone used a windshield washer as a water injection successfully? Looks a little Mickey mouse--but--I kinda roll that way.

bob w 09-14-2017 10:10 AM

Can't help you out, PA41, but I'll be watching closely. If you are successful I'll probably give my similar set up a try.

PA41 09-14-2017 05:47 PM

3 Attachment(s)
I had the mock up crossover exhaust with 2" pipe, and I decided I wanted the T3 flange opening filled, so I've ordered 2 1/2" pipe with mandrel 90s. Should weld easier, and flow more. I just hammered the tube square and fit it in the flange, and the 2" leaves too much gap--the 2.5" should be better. I think I'll lower the crossover a little too. I had to cut the turbo exhausts T3 flange off and make it flat. I only gave $140 for the set, and they are THIN! I've never welded with the Mig on 1 and 1, and had to dot dot dot it even then.

PA41 09-14-2017 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob w (Post 483832)
If you are successful I'll probably give my similar set up a try.

I think in moderation these Turbosonic systems should be successful. The early turbo coupe T birds and the Early Grand Nationals were draw through, non intercooled, and they made reasonable power. I believe users and sellers, were asking too much from this type of system. I'm expecting to get some modest improvements at a relatively low cost. I think I have overdone it in my other turbo projects, so I'm going for a little less in this one. We'll see how it works.

PA41 09-16-2017 07:12 AM

Was looking up this Turbosonic company on the net, sifting through the BS, and found they started making this setup in 1976, and it struck me that those were the 'bad old days' of factory performance. The smog laws were trashing factory hotrods, and the aftermarket was capitalizing on the need for speed. I can remember people buying new cars and going through the motor at zero miles to get some compression back. I was a gas station mechanic and had a booming business replacing new car smog distributors with earlier model dizzies with illegal curves and sometimes doubling fuel economy and performance. Accel probably sold a bundle of these at first. Apparently the tuners are now claiming that multiple stage meth/water injection in non intercooled applications can be effective in 8 psi of boost even better than intercooling. There is one tuner telling people to trash there intercoolers and get sophisticated watering systems. You tube--Voiding Warranties EP35. Its gotta be true--its on the internet.

Bamamav 09-16-2017 07:48 AM

Interesting watching you set this up. The thought went through my head for about 2 seconds that I might do my 302 up with a turbo.....you're making it look easy!:eek: If I ever were to do one, it would be a draw through like that.

Spooner 09-16-2017 11:53 AM

I just don't see how this is gonna work. The inlet side of the turbo is open. What are you blowing into? I don't see a hat on top of the carb. If this is a draw thru, the carb needs to get drawn into the turbo. If it is a "Blow through" carb setup, you need to blow through the top of the cab.......What Am I missing?

Spoon

Spooner 09-16-2017 11:56 AM

Upon Further review, I think there must be some plumbing missing that runs from the bottom of the carb to the turbo....Yes?

Spoon

PA41 09-16-2017 06:38 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooner (Post 483929)
Upon Further review, I think there must be some plumbing missing that runs from the bottom of the carb to the turbo....Yes?

Spoon

Yeah, I've got some 3" 90s coming. Thats the 'draw' side connection that's got water coming to it on the factory parts that I don't have. I think that tube might ice up in winter if its a daily driver. The carb adapter casting is a weird deal with two separate chambers in it with check valves in between them so you can start the motor with the carb feeding through the checks, and as soon as the turbo boosts even a little, the checks shut and it flows through the carb and the vacuum chamber, through the draw tubing (that I don't have yet) into the turbo, then into the lower boosted chamber then into the intake. Kind of a Rube Goldberg thing. The blue piece in the pic is what I'll just make with tubing. My previous use of this was with the turbo on the side with a short rubber 3" draw pipe, and a long U boosted tube like the pick on the work bench. . This time I'm putting the turbo in the back and using a short boosted connection, and a long draw tube like the picture of engine on the stand..

PA41 09-16-2017 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamamav (Post 483908)
o.....you're making it look easy!:eek:

I'm old and wore out, if it's not easy I can't do it. I'm about 10 years past my prime and about the only thing I'm better at now is figuring out how to make stuff easy enough for me to do. It's slow doing it that way, but I'm retired and every day's a Saturday.

PA41 09-16-2017 06:57 PM

7 Attachment(s)
Ooops, I didn't post the pics of the carb adapter here, just on the build part. Here's the pics of the Accel Turbosonic from the net.

PA41 09-19-2017 10:07 PM

Been studying water and water/meth alcohol injection as with a draw through you can't really do intercooling. Cooling the air/gas mix will cause the gas to drop out. After all the internet BS I believe there is an increase in octane rating with water injection, but am not sure much else. But an increase in octane is a good deal as you can have some timing advance and minimize pre detonation, that should help. I was reading where some of the Grass roots Motorsports guys were using E85 injection parts to inject the water (Stainless pieces). There still seems to be some alcohol gumming and rust problems though. Am thinking about using some old injectors I have, and just mix water with 20% antifreeze and see if that anti corrosion/rust effect would protect the metal enough to use without reducing the benifits of water injection. Basically its a 80 psi 12 volt plastic water pump, and 1 or 2 Hobbs switches set at different pressures with the first switch on a resistor making a slower pump volume, and the second switch without a ballast for higher pressure and increased flow. Entertaining shop time, and it'd be fun to hang a fuel injector and hobs switches on the draw and compression tubes looking like you're doing something. :)

PA41 09-21-2017 03:20 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Built a "draw' tube for the turbo intake out of 2x3 sq tube. Made a drain for the oil to the fuel pump mounting spot and welded up the 2 1/2" crossover/turbo flange. Making some progress. Enjoying the process, building is a pleasure--get a grin everyday.

PA41 09-22-2017 06:38 AM

Got a BOV off the net. Not what I was expecting, it seems like a design for compressed air (copper-aluminum) , and my experience is exhaust bypass--wastegate stuff. Since the drawthrough is compressed gas/air mix, if I wasted that, where do you discharge? Recirculate back to the intake, or into the exhaust after the turbo? If it's recirculated, looks like you'd get a real rich mix coming back into the turbo, if sent to the exhaust, might be blowing fire out the pipe--might be interesting, but not my original intent--trying to save this motor, not trying to show off (although showin off is always interesting, and should be considered). There is a safety issue anywhere the air gas mix is plumed, like to my boost gauge in the dash. Get a leak around the gauge and all you need is a spark!!! I guess I should have the boost gauge out on the engine where I can see it through the windshield? Wasting the fuel/air mix into the exhaust discharge point might be the safest as the exhaust gasses should suppress ignition. Might should just wastegate the pre turbo exhaust into the discharge, and stay away from the compressed side.

PA41 09-23-2017 08:59 PM

4 Attachment(s)
The boost actuated buttterfly was leaking compressed gas/air into the intake--probably why it would runaway with it self. Gutted it. Worked on the oil feed/drain. few days it'll run (I hope).

PA41 09-28-2017 08:44 AM

5 Attachment(s)
Shop ran it list night. Runns sweet.!! Turbos make such a great sound! Got ahead of myself and just used a 500 cfm racing 2bbl and cobbled up the carb linkage. Impatience has often caused me problems, but I didn't hurt anything this time. The pics are before the run, the cheep chrome headers are yellow now--probably should have wiped off the shipping oil. I removed the draw tub afterwards to check the turbo, and there was a little pooling of fuel in the tube. It almost certainly needs heat. The 'factory' draw tube has water piped through, and I may need to do something.

PA41 09-28-2017 09:16 AM

1 Attachment(s)
This ran alot better than I was expecting. Really this turbo is over sized, and I was thinking it was going to be a bit doggy on the bottom. Didn't seem so. It revved readily and felt peppy and responded well to the throttle off idle. Many possible reasons first being --no intercooler-it didn't have to fill all that space before the charge got to the motor. Second timing--although no vacuum, I'm running 26-7 degrees--little much. Third--50 cc squirter, and big jets on the Holly 500 cfm 2bbl. I ran a 300 hp 350 chevy in a dirt car that required this carb, so its a 'big' 2bbl. I didn't hook up my water injection or BOV, and didn't even yard drive it, so it's a little early to really see what's going on--it just felt different at this point than my previous experiences with turbos.. In pic, note the injector installation. I used the feed part of the injetion parts with a schrader valve thinking I might build a purge where I could drain the water out of the injector after a drive and replace the fluid with a light oil or something so it wouldn't foul the injector--just a 'maybe' thing. Not hooked to anything, pump is on order, and I'll need and injection driver/pulser. I think I can make one. If not I can just use the bung for a mister nozzle, and go a little more conventional. All blue sky...

PA41 10-02-2017 07:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
When I first start up I think I hear the turbo squeal a little. I believe I'll crank the engine a few seconds before I flip the ignition on and see if it quits. The thing was built in the 70s, so 40ish years old, and It may be draining the oil back overnight and starting dry?? Putting a cut down 36 Ford truck grill on it. Going all ford...

8literbeater 12-12-2017 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PA41 (Post 483830)
maybe Ill see 200 hp??

I found this little bit of info while I was researching for my turbo project. It gives a wide range, but it is useful:

Quote:

You can get calculate a rough estimate on Engine horsepower using the following formulas:Lower value: 0.052 x CID x (psi boost + 14.7) = bhpHigher value: 0.077 x CID x (psi boost + 14.7) = bhp
In your case, 4 pounds would give you around 290 horsepower on the low estimate side. 8 pounds would be around 360. I didn't see if you said how much pressure you're planning to run.

I've also heard that the best injection fluid for your money is windshield washer fluid. You have to get the -30F formula. They are something like 30-40% methanol.

In my personal taste, the methanol injection is a whole lot of stuff to mess with, for a 5% horsepower increase on something just built for fun. But then again, that may be your idea of fun, and that's cool.

As for the squeaking, I highly doubt it's the turbo. I would even almost say impossible. I run my oil pressure gauge right on the turbo, a couple inches upstream of the oil restrictor, and it does take a few seconds to get oil pressure when I start up. (maybe 4-6 seconds?) The whole engine system should be able to operate safely on the residual oil film for a few seconds, at low speeds. That's also why I've never understood the people that start their engines and slam them immediately to redline. It sounds like you have an ignition switch separate from your starter switch, as I do. I tend to start up more like an old radial airplane engine, where I crank for a few seconds to limber everything up and get the juices flowing, then flip the ignition on for a smooth start. My rule of thumb is to crank until I get 4 to 5 inHg manifold vacuum, then light it. It still takes a bit for oil pressure though.

If you do think the turbo needs new bearings, it doesn't cost much to have them replaced, and have the assembly balanced.

earthman 12-12-2017 06:04 PM

Well this is interesting :cool: Thanks for posting PA.

Abasham 08-02-2018 12:00 PM

Hmm. My Gears are turning....

lowbudget50 01-07-2020 10:27 AM

I wana see it run!!!!

26Troadster 01-07-2020 10:56 AM

i haven't heard anything from paul in awhile, think i'll hit him up on fb.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Rat Rods Rule Inc.