healthy debate

The wife and I are having a discussion. I contend that Frank and Jessie James are heroes, She says because they broke the law, they are criminals, plain and simple. My view is if the people who tried to kill you are paying the law to call you an outlaw, in a time where justice was what you took for yourself, the label doesn't matter. Our facebook seems to be divided very strongly North vs South. Opinions? Were they Heroes or criminals? I would like to point out that Jessie is revered and Bob Ford is demonized pretty much universally.

Lots of folk heroes were criminals

"She says because they broke the law, they are criminals, plain and simple."

Where does that leave most politicians?

Dont know much about the James. I understand that the Earps were no angels either. Folk heroes, I guess, much like Robin Hood

"Folk Heroes", not heroes! Granted laws were of a different caliber back then, but they robbed and killed!

Stroker McGurk said:

"She says because they broke the law, they are criminals, plain and simple."

Where does that leave most politicians?

Dont know much about the James. I understand that the Earps were no angels either. Folk heroes, I guess, much like Robin Hood

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Pretty much sums it up.

CR55 said:

"Folk Heroes", not heroes! Granted laws were of a different caliber back then, but they robbed and killed!

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I'll second that... thieves and murderers regardless the cirumstances.

Stroker McGurk said:

Where does that leave most politicians?

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Snortin' coke off a hooker's butt? [S



Coincidentally, Robert Ford killed Jesses James.

The story goes that Jesse shot and killed a neighbor he didn't like because of an incident when he was a boy. Not my hero. The James farm is preserved in Kearney Mo. You can see half of the round steel bomb the Pinkerton agents threw in the window, which took off their Mother's arm. She continued to plow the fields with a team of mules using one hand. She was over 6 feet tall. I lived in Liberty Mo. where the first bank they robbed is preserved. It was the first ever daylight bank robbery. Ned Buntline was the author responsible for publishing the novels that gave notoriety to scum like this.

What did he do that was heroic? I'm not real familiar with his life. Who did he help? Who did he save? What did he give his life for? What good did he do?

The James boys were great fighters for the CSA in the war. After the war, they turned into criminals. So, it depends on when in their life you are talking about, and where you are from. Hero's to the Confederacy, enemies to the Union, criminals to all after the war.......

Not all famous people in history are heroes. There are a lot of others in the same class as Frank and Jesse. Al Capone, John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde. Lots of famous names, but they are not heroes.

Bamamav said:

The James boys were great fighters for the CSA in the war. After the war, they turned into criminals. So, it depends on when in their life you are talking about, and where you are from. Hero's to the Confederacy, enemies to the Union, criminals to all after the war.......

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I would have to agree.

Sorta like Hilton,Kardashians. famous yes, idols or heroes not by a long shot.

Interesting posts.
I have been doing a lot of reading this winter and have read some very good books on the subject of The James Brothers as well as the Earp brothers and some Billy the kid thrown in for good measure.
The Frank and Jesse as well as the Younger Bros. liked to portray themselves as victims of the war. The truth is that most of them rode as raiders and were not considered every day soldiers. As Cole Younger himself said upon his capture after the raid on Northfield Min. (Paraphrasing here) We played a rough game and deserve anything that we get.
They took great advantage at the state of unrest following the war. As did others.

The Earps were like many men of thier time in so much as they spent considerable time on both sides of the law.
Known primarily for the Gun Fight at the OK corral,( Which by the way didn't happen at the corral) they were also known to be land swindlers. Card sharks. Cattle rustlers and quite possible stage coach robbers.(Accused but never proven). The famous gunfight had less to do with the law and more to do with a personal.

And as far as Billy the Kid goes. He appears to have been just plain loco....

The one thing that they all have in common was that they were written about quite alot in the Eastern press of the day. Between that and the Dime novels written about them they have all been turned into "Folk Hero's". The fact is that everything they did, they did for their own benefit and no one else's.
Torchie.

Torchie said:

Card sharks.

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Hey Torchie. A friend recently corrected me... the term is card sharp. (unlike pool shark) Just something I found interesting and thought I'd pass it along.
.

My brides mother AKA my mother in law, is a Younger by way of east Texas.
Their family refer to Cole Younger as the dark side of the family.
Just a bunch of lawless hooligans from what I gather.

Bamamav said:

The James boys were great fighters for the CSA in the war. After the war, they turned into criminals.

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War heroes turned criminals. OK, makes sense why the South would see them more as heroes.

Why you want to be like that Sam?
Can't we all just get along?
(He said with a tongue in cheek Southern perspective)

Rev. the only righteous way to deal with unfair laws is to get them changed. Without that we have anarchy.

Funny how we as Americans looks at these things. Five nights a week on the TV show COPS we can watch members of Law enforcement, dressed like Delta Force team members, beating the snot out of some 99# junkie that did not say "yes, Sir " fast enough. Or, the newest LEO game "how long can I make flop around like carp on the shore with my taser."

Yet the Wall Street "Banksters" and CEO Robber Barrens screw the nation's economy, wipe out people retirement accts, and put millions of Americans out of work. The worst that happens to them is may the miss their manicure appt.
Don't even get me started on BP trashing the gulf of Mexico and killing Oil Rig workers in the name of Corp. Profit.

Thomas Jefferson must be spinning in his grave.

But, I digress.

They were criminals, no different than Bonnie and Clyde, who some people also think of as heros for some reason. They were not people who abided by the law but chose to use force and murder to get what they wanted.

For some reason, we choose to hold up some people who do things like that as heros. Not sure why, but even The Night Stalker had women proposing to him while he was in prison. We humans are just strange sometimes.

Don

Sam_Fear said:

War heroes turned criminals. OK, makes sense why the South would see them more as heroes.

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Spoken like a true Yankee