suicide front end...

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bonechop

Member
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
23
Location
NW Indiana
Hey, new to the site and I am trying to get my roller setup. I want to know what are specifics and methods of using/installing a suicide front end? spring placement and mounting, hairpins and axle also. Thanks ahead of time!
 
Well, the concept is the same regardless of how it is done. The term refers to a setup where the spring is mounted behind the axle. T Buckets do it by mounting the spring to the same bracket used for the radius rods. Some people punch a hole in the split wishbones and mount a spring perch through that hole, others weld a perch onto the wishbones.

I actually prefer mounting the perch to a gusset welded below the wishbone as it drops the car an additional couple of inches, and IMO is stronger there. Here is how I did mine.

Don
 

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ok, so no hairpins, you say that the wishbones with either the spring perches bolted on or the gusseted mount. So the next question I have is which year/style for the front wishbones?

and nice work donsrods!!
 
Oh no, you can do hairpins too. Both my Sons are using hairpins on their cars done suicide style. There are commercially available mounts you can get from people like Speedway, Pete and Jakes, etc to put them on an I beam axle.

As for what years to use if you go the split wishbone route, 28-48 Ford are commonly used, but I prefer the 32 up as they are much stronger than the Model A ones, those are pretty whimpy. Mine are 37's, I think, but any from 32 up are good.

I'd post some pictures of hairpins done suicide style, but it seems the picture posting part of the forum is down right now.

Don
 
Ok, looks like we can now post pictures again.............
 

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I'm not a fan of hanging the front spring off of hair pins. Ford wishbones yes, but not aftermarket hairpins. Take a close look at the clevises used on the front of wishbones. Hanging half the weight of a vehicle off of them looks kind of sketchy.
 
What you want to use to do the hairpin route are called "batwings." They sell several versions.

One type is made with no provision for a spring, just the radius rods. The spring on this version mounts OVER the axle like a traditional Ford front end.

Another version does have an extra ear to mount the spring pivot so you can hang the spring suicide style, behind the axle. It is made for use with I beam axles.

The final type is just like number two but it is made for round axles, you weld this one on. It comes in either a version WITH the ears to mount the spring or WITHOUT.

I went to the shop tonight for a few minutes and shot you some pictures. The first one is my Son's '29 using an I beam. The second and third pictures (of the blue car) show the type you weld onto the round axle.

These are totally acceptable ways of mounting the spring and have been used on a zillion T buckets and hot rods over the years. Pete and Jakes, SoCal, and Total Performance among others sell these. You just have to specify that you need the extra ear to mount the spring perch behind.

In the first picture the spring is not there, but you can see the hole where the spring perch mounts between the two parts of the radius rod.

Don
 

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ok I think I am getting it split and drilled wishbones, adding a plate midway on hairpins, or using batwings with option for relocated spring perch. Right? Bear with me guys I am green with this, I can talk like a pro on custom bikes but this is a new direction for me.

AND I have seen front car wishbones with what looked like a shackle perch built on them oem, how about that? But then the axle location confuses me.
 
All of the methods you mentioned are fine, except for hanging the spring off of the hairpins themselves. As BobW said, the hairpins are not strong enough to support the weight of the car with springs hung directly off of them. Batwings are another story, they are fine.

Also as you mentioned, some people build a perch affair off of split bones, if reinforced correctly that is fine. The best way is to wrap some reinforcement around the bones in that area to spread the load.

BTW, here is why they call them suicide front ends. If they break loose while underway................................

Don
 

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What you want to use to do the hairpin route are called "batwings." They sell several versions.

One type is made with no provision for a spring, just the radius rods. The spring on this version mounts OVER the axle like a traditional Ford front end.

Another version does have an extra ear to mount the spring pivot so you can hang the spring suicide style, behind the axle. It is made for use with I beam axles.

The final type is just like number two but it is made for round axles, you weld this one on. It comes in either a version WITH the ears to mount the spring or WITHOUT.

I went to the shop tonight for a few minutes and shot you some pictures. The first one is my Son's '29 using an I beam. The second and third pictures (of the blue car) show the type you weld onto the round axle.

These are totally acceptable ways of mounting the spring and have been used on a zillion T buckets and hot rods over the years. Pete and Jakes, SoCal, and Total Performance among others sell these. You just have to specify that you need the extra ear to mount the spring perch behind.

In the first picture the spring is not there, but you can see the hole where the spring perch mounts between the two parts of the radius rod.

Don

Don, thanks for all the great pictures, some good ideas there but on that last one I notice the bolts are too short and not into the locking part of the nut and I also have a question about just using clevis ends, do they wear and get rattley after a while? It looks like they would. I really like the one with the drilled gusset under the wishbone.
A couple things to add is this, make sure you pay attention to the kingpin inclination (castor angle) 3 1/2 to 7 degrees if I remember right. And also it isn't advisable to run wishbones on a tube axle, you should go with a 4 bar or use something like a 32 cross member with a stock wishbone. The tube axles may not take the torsional twist forces like an I beam will.
I have never built or drove a suicide from so I don't have much usefull to add but a lot of them I see, I wouldn't drive across the street, they got their name from somewhere.
 
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Ok here is the way I think I will go, either hairpins with the spring behind mount and strong spring perches, or split wishbones with either a split and drilled setup or split wishbones with the gusset mount. And use 32 and up wishbones. right?
 
BoneChop, I'm using a bolt on hairpin bracket with my I-beam. I haven't ran it yet but have heard good things from people who have. I'm using the standard clevis ends and Ford rod ends that I had to make a triangular mount that mounts to the bottom of the frame. I think this should be good and sturdy... but it's all preference.

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WB3, you are right about the nuts not going all the way on. We had to build a plate to mount the friction shock arm to and it was thicker than the original plate. We did locktite the h*** out of them though, so they aren't coming loose.

As for the clevises, no, they are always torqued tight, there is no movement there like rod ends. They simply afix to the batwing and stay put. There has also been a lot of controversay over the years about tube axles not bending. Even magazine articles have been written pro and con. In the real world I have never seen one break from being mounted with hairpins, and companies like Total Performance do all of their T buckets this way. I think that the axles travel up and down so little that the twisting forces lots of people talk about are negligible.

Kelseydum: That is a nice looking setup there, and the perfect way to do it. The only thing that I would add are the proper perch bolts to secure the batwings to the I beam axle. Regular bolts won't work as they need to have a proper taper to go into the holes and lock in. You probably knew that, but I am just mentioning it for anyone else who is doing this. Here is a picture of a smooth top perch bolt that Total Performance sells.

Don
 

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If you have a lot more time than money, you can make perch bolts. I found 5/8" lug nuts with a flared taper for seating the wheel. I drilled the lug nuts out to 5/8" and cut the taper part off right at the flare. These pieces filled the tapers in the bat wings (Ford radius rods in this case) and I was able to use regular 5/8" bolts.
 
Thanks Don, I guess I wasn't thinking when I asked about the clevis ends, of course they wouldn't have movement on hairpins. I suppose the failure rate is low on the tube axles but I have seen pictures of some that came apart and I know there are some different opinions. I think some areas have differing road conditions too. In east texas they put another layer of chips on the streets every year and the gutters are so deep you'll drag your trailer hitch on a 3/4 ton pick just to get into a parking lot. That's whay I am always a little in doubt when I see stuff like that or trucks that are 3" off the ground and the owner says it never makes contact. I have to ask because it looks like it wouldn't be a good deal where I drive.
 
Damn guys awesome help and tips!! I am going to go with Kelseydum's setup, I beam axle, bolt on batwings with hairpins. Is there a standard length hairpin? I have seen there are a bunch of lengths from 2-4 feet.
 
Use ones as long as possible, while still looking proportional to the car. Most are in the 32-36 inch range. You sort of want then to end up as near to the firewall as possible so they don't look like they are just stuck on the frame. If they terminate near the firewall they just flow better into the overall look.

Don
 

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