48 fire truck roadster

[truckster]

This project is based, loosely, on a August 2007 Rod & Custom exercise by Thom Taylor. Liked the roadster concept and wanted something different from the pack. Started with a 1980 C30 dually one ton flatbed Chev, and a 1948 6400 series Chev fire truck that somebody had given up on during restoration.

Bought the 1 ton off Craigslist for $500, hoping to use the drive train, including axles. Original vision included the dually 1 ton rear axle. Ended up parting out the entire truck and keeping only the 454 BB, and transmission, steering, and odds and ends in linkage. total cost of these components ended up $250 in the black (made $750 total from parts sold)/

Bought the fire truck locally of eBay for $2,000. Bought it mostly for the low mile (11,000), clean cab. Over the long haul, I ended up parting it out as well and broke even on the cost, securing the complete cab and some other odd pieces for $0.

 

[truckster]

Following the concept of the Thom Taylor drawings, I cut the top off and then cut 10" out of the centerline of the cab using a plasma torch, sawzall, and pneumatic cut-off wheel.

I have always coveted rpu's, but at 6'4" they have never been realistically possible for me to own and drive; owned a 29 Phaeton once and it just wasn't a good fit. Hence the desire to have an oversized rpu that fits me. The trick for me here is to get the porportions right, so that at first look it doesn't appear as large as it is. Having said that I spent 20 years in mining, 6 of that owning my own mining contracting company. Having owned and operated heavy equipment and trucks, I just have a natural propensity for trucks and duallies in general.

Once the center was removed, it was brought back together and TIG welded the center seam. Would use MIG next time. It now has the same overall width that the late 30/early 40 truck cabs came with.

 

[hotrod preacher]

cool start--and a profitable one, too, i might add

 

[PA41]

Yea--that hotrodding for nuthin is good stuff--got a buddy that claims to show a profit on his 36 Chevy PU from scaling his donors.

Man--that is fresh metal you're working with!!--I wouldn't know how to rat with out rusty--paper thin cabs. Good looking project! Especially like the dash..

PA41

 

[truckster]

Thank you for the comments/observations, but it didn't stay profitable very long. My objective was to do it for $0 or at least as little cash outlay as possible.

The next step after slicing and dicing the cab was to make sure I really had something going that I wanted to commit the time and energy to make happen. Some quick measurements and putting them on paper with AutoCad LT, gave me the side views and a base plan for a frame.

By this point I knew the 1 ton dually rear axle wasn't going to work. Went looking for alternatives that would stay with the theme and scale. Ended up with front I beam axle and rear Rockwell dually axle from under a P40 school bus. $600 total, including the 19.5 wheels and six roller rags. Now my $0 budget is in the red.

Still unsure if I really wanted to do this, I needed to find something to use for a bed. DJ3100 and I had been swapping parts and buying parts from each other for projects and he had the pickup bed left over from his 53 3100 build, so $100 and it was mine; holes, dents, rust and all.

Bed was cut to 44" and narrowed to 45"

Before I started on the frame, still uncommitted, a mockup was done with what I had. I wasn't smart enough to take pictures of the wooden frame I used to fine tune the frame dimensions, or of the fabrication of the frame rails.

The end result was that the frame would need to be 2x5" .180 wall rectangular tubing, 5" front Z at the front end, and 16" Z for the rear.

With this mockup, it was time to commit and get serious.

 

[DJ3100]

K,

The posts are great! I hadn't seen the drawings before, I shoulda gotten you to do that for me (or maybe I did, but it wasn't yesterday so I forgot?).

PA41's comment on the nice clean vs rusty metal explains why your welds are so much better than mine. All along, I thought it was because you're a better welder than me. [

Posting this stufff really gets you excited about doing more. You'll be out there 10 hours a day pretty soon!

Keep'em coming

Dan

 

[Tripper]

NICE job!!! I loved those Thom Taylor renderings & here's the one I have in my queue. I have the truck ready to go & hopefully I'll get to it B4 I die!!! It will NOT be purple or have a LaSalle grill.

BoB

 

[CORPO]

lookin very cool and different.... great job on narrowing it

Just curious.... what is the overall width of that rear end? outside of tire to outside of tire... im just wondering how the custom one i built compares.. i find myself driving down the road eying up dually rear ends and wondering

Im right at 80" with 7.5x20 tires

 

[truckster]

Tripper

I have the "Fountain of Utes" sketches from Classic Trucks, by Steve Stanford that I really like as well, but they didn't adapt very well to a dually.

Corpo

Different is good.

Outside to outside of tires is exactly 7', or 84". Do you have pix of the 20's on your thread? will try to find it.

_-----------------​

Right now, just trying to catch the thread up to where the build is today. Going to need to tap into all the talent, knowledge and experience that is out there on some of the things coming up like front suspension (thinking double quarter ellipticals), steering, linkage, and building the 454.

Ended up going to the P40 axles to keep the porportions together, the 16 inch wheels and tires from the 1 ton just looked too dinky. They were about 30.5" in diameter.

Also tried some 225/R70 19.5 tires but they were wider and lower in profile than the 8R 19.5 rags that are in the photos. The 8R's gave me the tall, spindly profile I was seeking. They are a little more than 33' in diameter and narrow. Managed to pick up 4 new Michelins in the same size for $100 each and looking for 2 more.

 

[truckster]

DJ

I didn't do any drawings for you, but I would have been happy to, still am.

Just wanted to post a short history blurb relative to your F-2stang, but can do that on your thread if you want.

The Capri cum Mustang you are using the SVO components from, was first purchased by me around 1989 for $3600, in Colorado, to go SCCA autocrossing. It had about 40k miles as I remember. I drove it for two weeks and then started tearing it down and buying SVO components to build it back up.

Got to be on 1st name basis with the parts guy at Western Slope Ford. $14,000 later I had accumulated all the suspension goodies, body parts, a new HO roller 302, and a lot of other items (wheels/tires, headers, cage, etc.) for the build. About that time I found out I could go racing on real tracks, not just autocrossing, if I owned a Porsche.

So, for the next 8 years or so, all I did was build and race Porsches. The Capri and pile of parts sat collecting dust in a corner of the shop. After storing and moving it for 14 years I sold it all to Doug for $4,000. He put in a driveline and exhaust, hooked up the brakes, tuned it up called it a Mercstang and occasionally drove it around Phoenix for a few years until you bought it.

 

[CORPO]

Yep lots of pictures.... heres my build thread http://www.ratrodsrule.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9479

I wanted to maintain the tall skinny look so i made the axle to run the original rims i will be running narrower 20's up front 6x32" overall and 7 or 7.5 x 35" in the rear....

got to get back to work ....

 

[PA41]

DJ

I didn't do any drawings for you, but I would have been happy to, still am.

Just wanted to post a short history blurb relative to your F-2stang, but can do that on your thread if you want.

The Capri cum Mustang you are using the SVO components from, was first purchased by me around 1989 for $3600, in Colorado, to go SCCA autocrossing. It had about 40k miles as I remember. I drove it for two weeks and then started tearing it down and buying SVO components to build it back up.

Got to be on 1st name basis with the parts guy at Western Slope Ford. $14,000 later I had accumulated all the suspension goodies, body parts, a new HO roller 302, and a lot of other items (wheels/tires, headers, cage, etc.) for the build. About that time I found out I could go racing on real tracks, not just autocrossing, if I owned a Porsche.

So, for the next 8 years or so, all I did was build and race Porsches. The Capri and pile of parts sat collecting dust in a corner of the shop. After storing and moving it for 14 years I sold it all to Doug for $4,000. He put in a driveline and exhaust, hooked up the brakes, tuned it up called it a Mercstang and occasionally drove it around Phoenix for a few years until you bought it.

Sweet!! A rat with papers!

That build has 'Sports Car' stamped all over it, now its got Creds...

Cool ..

PA41

 

[AZ4GEMAN]

There is more to the story

I rescued the Capri cum Mercstang from Truckster and used it as a Sunday driver (aka the Iraqi Taxi) until DJ3100 shamed me into giving it up for his F2-stang project.

Meanwhile I started building a 53 GMC COE. It is on a 1 ton dually chassis (acquired from Truckster) using his fire truck bed and the rear fenders from DJ3100's original AD project.

Once I figure out how to post photos you all can see what we are up to.

 

[truckster]

more pix on frame & front axle

I had forgotten all the swapping and trading that went on last year between the 3 projects.

Here are some photos on the frame build.

The front axle from the P40 was too wide and massive, but I wanted to keep the spindles and disc brake set up. The front axle from the 48 fire truck was GM and the P40 was GM, so a little quick measuring indicated it would be possible to bore out the 48 axle for the larger P40 kingpins and hang the P40 spindles on the 48 axle. All other measurements except the king pin diameter were a match.

Set up the 48 axle in the mill and bored out both ends about .180" as I remember, reamed it just a touch and it all went together. Looking at it, you can't tell it wasn't a factory axle assembly. It gave me a more proportional cross section size to the axle, and narrowed the front track by 10". Bonus was it also provided 2" more drop than the P40 axle.

The frame was built based on the wooden mockup dimensions. Used .180" wall 2x5" rectangular tubing. Pie cut and rewelded the front members down to 3" at the very front. Gives it a 5" Z in the front, and 16" Z in the rear. The hole in the rear upright are sleeves for the bolts for the spherical rod ends, for the four link bars. Everything is just tacked together now. Will put it on a rotisserie and finish weld it all, once it is together.

Running the front rails long right now, until I can figure out the front suspension. Haven't had any feedback about the double quarter elliptical setup. Anyone ever tried it? Would like some input.

 

[truckster]

two steps backward, one step forward

To arrive at the plan for the rear suspension, I run a series of seven different triangulated four link setup calculations, using Dan Barcroft's v3.0 caculator software. Then went out to the shop, and figured out that there wasn't enough room between the frame and the differential to do a triangulated setup. That Rockwell housing and 3rd member is just too big to make it all fit and work and keep the axle centered in the 44" bed.

So back to the four link, and will use a panhard bar or Watts link. Probably the panhard, again, because of space limitations.

Took some thick wall DOM that I got from DJ3100 and turned it on the lathe to accept 3/4" grade 8 bolts. Used a hole saw on the uprights and offset the inner holes 1/4" closer to the rear axle than the outer holes. Need the bolts canted slightly so the linkage will clear the frame at the axle.

The last two pictures are of the brackets I was building and trying to figure out how to install for the spherical rod ends at the frame end (until DJ3100 came by and gave me a simpler, cleaner way to do it). The first set ended up too small, the second set was sized right, but just couldn't come up with a clean way to attach them to the frame. So, all eight brackets are throw aways, unless some other use pops up.

Actually, I had already considered doing it the way Dan said, but dismissed it as too much work. Dan got my perspective straightened out. It wasn't nearly as much work as what I had already tried to do, and I liked the look way better.

The tubing for the 4 link is 1 3/4" diameter .120" DOM. 1 1/2" looked too dinky, and 2" was too much mass.

 

[truckster]

Engine mounts

Whle trying to sort out the rear suspension, I decided I needed to get the engine & trans mounted so I would know what angle to set on the pinion shaft.

Pretty straight forward. Engine will be mounted solid. Trans mounted nearly solid, with just a 1/2" hard rubber spacer between it and the mount. This is all a grand experiment anyway. The unsprung weight with those axles, wheels and tires is probably equal to the sprung weight of the frame, body and drive train. Figure a little extra vibration from solid motor mounts won't be noticeable.

If I'm wrong, I will modify later for different mounts. The cross member under the oil pan is temporary, and will come out once the front suspension is put together.

Tranny is just a scrapped 700r4 case. Will find or build a 700r4 when it is closer to running. The motor is the 454 from the '78 one ton (the one that made me money). It had a 4 speed/granny trans attached, scrapped it.

The 454 is starting to look a little on the small side. May have to reconsider on the engine/trans.
V10? Diesel? Straight 8?

This brings the build up to where it is today. Will now post updates and pics as they happen.

 

[Thunder1]

I can't believe I haven't seen this thread before. I'm really liking what I've seen and read so far. Great build!

Thunder

 

[Reverend D]

Well if you want a BIG engine, a 6v-53 Detroit Diesel would do it(V6, 318 cu in, about 215-220 hp at 2500 rpms, but torque is a brutal 475 ft lbs or so)its what many fire trucks ran at one time (some even ran the bigger 8v-71). Its a two stroke diesel with a stock blower (used to scavenge the cylinder) and typically ran a turbo as well for increased boost and more power.) Transmission options with it would probably be like a Allison automatic. If you've ever heard one run they typically sound like they're screaming (sometimes called the screaming jimmy). Its a BIG heavy engine. A lighter better choice in diesels would a a 5.9 liter cummins out of a Dodge Ram. With just a little work on the fuel injector pump (screw turned up and different fuel plate) its REAL easy to see 400 hp and 6-700 ft lbs of torque. It'll mate up behind a 5sp manual that dodge used or various 4-5sp automatics. They're pretty plentiful and cheap and pretty long lived, its not uncommon to see them go over 300,00 miles. If you know about these forgive my blabbing on about them, but they might be good options for you. Just some food for thought if you were thinking Diesel. (I love diesel rods, on youtube theres a cool little rat rod pickup with a 4 cyl version of the cummins I was talking about and its got its turbo up on top of the engine, quick little guy. Here's a video of a 6cyl cummins rat rod (and maybe the 4 cyl if I can find it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpjPIj1YF0M

And the little 3.9 bt cummins 4 banger rat rod, he's just cruising this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVlov_t4fjg

Just some fun stuff to look at. Projects looking good!

Regards,

Rev. D.

 

[truckster]

Thanks for the comments Thunder1 and Reverend D.

I am having the same thoughts about the diesel, the Detroit would tax the frame for weight, I think. The Cummins is plentiful with aftermarket parts, and has the option for an automatic. Guess I need to find out how much one of the HO Cummins would cost and what it weighs.

I have time to decide and look around. Might just get it running with the 454 first, but don't know right now, undecided. See what opportunities come up.

Got some more done on the rear suspension today, will try to get some pix up.

 

[truckster]

Reverend D,

Looked at the Youtube links, that was what I needed! It also had the P***ed-off-Pete, with a quarter elliptical setup on the rear with the quarter ellipticals working as two links in a four link setup. Very helpful. Thank you.