I'm considering redoing the entire front end.

[justsomeguy]

This project just keeps morphing. Everyday I seem to come up with a new hair-brained idea and need someone to talk me off the ledge.

The front suspension on my rat is a take-off from an oval track dirt car known as a "Rayburn" style. I am having some questions coming up in my mind as to how this will perform on the street. Inherently, the front end is designed to only turn left and in an odd manner for a street car no less. I have compensated for some of the design elements as much as possible, but am still concerned about it.

The local oval track shop owner has been helping me and assures me that "It'll be great!", but I'm hoping that we don't have different opinions of what a sub-2000 pound, 500hp street car's "great" handling is.

Beyond this, I'm not in love with the front clip I have installed. I would like to redo it with something more substantial and something that is more "built to my standards".

My real problem is: Well, what exactly do I build then?

The things I'm not negotiable on include:

• IFS
• Coil Overs
• Tubular Upper and Lower Control Arms
• I would love to run my existing rack and pinion which is 18.5" wide

So where does this leave me? Will a Mustang II suit my needs? Should I be looking at a Third Gen F-Body front end? Heck, is there anyway that I can even find out the dimensions I need to build something like this? How crazy am I about this whole idea in general?

 

[skull]

leave it

l'd leave it alone. being an A-arm style front end the guy is correct on ya can make it turn OK both ways. the nascar guys do it so l see no problem setting that one up for the street.

remember the old rule, if one thing is changed, it starts a snowball effect.

ask yourself, do l want to drive soon or work on the thing for the next 3 or 4 years

Later

 

[justsomeguy]

Skull,

I know whatcha mean about ever driving it. Unfortunately, I am at a weird stage where the next things I need to all cost money (build motor, buy coilovers, brakes, etc). I was not planning on finishing until spring time anyway. Steel is basically free for me and a good winter project this would be...

 

[bob w]

I like your front suspension. It doesn't look heavy and busy like many a-arm setups appear. The geometry looks ok from what I see in the pics and based on my meager knowledge.
If it was my truck, I would pull the front suspension forward so the spindle centerline is even with or somewhat ahead of the front of the engine. If you can relocate the diagonal braces on the lower control arms from the front to the rear there would not have to be much frame ahead of the suspension. These changes are just blacksmith work and wouldn't cost much.

I'd take some pics and cut them up to try the change on paper. See if it balances out the look of the truck better. Of course, if you are computer savvy (I'm not) you can use photoshop.

What is the wheelbase at is sits now?

 

[justsomeguy]

Bob,

I had a lengthy conversation with the fella who built this front clip today. He was bending up some rollcage pieces for me and I was offering him some help with tasks around his shop, finally was able to nail him down for some good one-on-one discussion. We talked seriously about how this will perform and what some of the advantages/disadvantages are and will be. We discussed some of the research he did regarding the different Ackerman formulas and roll centers on hundreds of cars he has built and why this particular clip was built the way it was and why it has been hanging around his shop for years after the car was wrecked. I came away with a bit of a different opinion of him and I believe he did the same of me. He said that if he would have then known how "particular" I am about building things the right way, he would have just given me the frame jig and let me do my own thing.

I think that's about where this story is going to take a break for a few months. I have resigned myself to the fact that I will be building a new clip based on the current IFS style. There will be some subtle changes to the geometry which are as of yet undetermined. A lot of the info I need to make the geometry tweaks, I need to have the car finished to get... Kinda a catch .22 I got there. I'll stick with what I have until I get it "done", and then I'll build my new front end and swap it.

The proportions are hard to really get until you see it in person. I think It looks really nice without any fenders though. All tubular stuff, nothing stamped and bulky looking. Please keep in mind that none of the hardware is correct and nothing is finished assembled on the entire fron end in this pic. I will try to get better pics, but the weather is killin me right now and I'm actually a bit doubtful if the truck will leave the garage until the spring time with the way things have been...

 

[justsomeguy]

What is the wheelbase at is sits now?

I forgot to answer this. You sure you want to know? 96" wheelbase with a 64" front track width. Almost proportioned like a shifter cart!!![ddd

 

[Tim...Ok]

I don't mind the look of the IFS much, but in my eye it would just look better proportioned if the front suspension were moved forward,I'd say 8 or 10"

 

[bob w]

Tim...OK and I want a 106" wheelbase on your truck. You better cooperate or he and I will show up some night really late with our sawzalls...

It's a very cool truck and wil be a crowd pleaser either way. Just have fun building it and keep posting your progress.

 

[skull]

work

l think you are trying to re-invent the wheel.

l like the stock car looking suspension, it is cool [cl

what did the man who built it say? you mentioned you spoke to him but were not clear on what he said.

my concern is doin' all that work to the front end and still not be happy or make it worse.

l would finish the truck, drive it for a while and if not happy, then change it.

at least when you drive it that way you can see how it handles and see what change are necessary.

the wheelbase at 96'' should be fine. my dwarf car was 96'' WB and 65'' width outside to outside at the tires and it handled like a slot car with the same suspension design you have.

l can't really see that truck weighing much more than 22OO-23OO pounds.

keep us informed on what ya decide.



Later

 

[Sam_Fear]

I like it as it is - short and stubby! But a 10" move of the front suspension might be even better - not more than that or it'll look like your trying to copy a suicide front end. All bets are off if you put a radiator up there.

 

[justsomeguy]

I don't mind the look of the IFS much, but in my eye it would just look better proportioned if the front suspension were moved forward,I'd say 8 or 10"

Tim...OK and I want a 106" wheelbase on your truck. You better cooperate or he and I will show up some night really late with our sawzalls...

It's a very cool truck and wil be a crowd pleaser either way. Just have fun building it and keep posting your progress.

If you guys want it longer, I'll put you up with a place to stay and a stocked fridge! I could always use an extra hand. [cl

l think you are trying to re-invent the wheel.

l like the stock car looking suspension, it is cool [cl

what did the man who built it say? you mentioned you spoke to him but were not clear on what he said.

my concern is doin' all that work to the front end and still not be happy or make it worse.

l would finish the truck, drive it for a while and if not happy, then change it.

at least when you drive it that way you can see how it handles and see what change are necessary.

the wheelbase at 96'' should be fine. my dwarf car was 96'' WB and 65'' width outside to outside at the tires and it handled like a slot car with the same suspension design you have.

l can't really see that truck weighing much more than 22OO-23OO pounds.

keep us informed on what ya decide.



Later

Like I said, I'm gonna run it for tight now and then I'll decide what changes will be made on the next clip. Basically, exactly what you are suggesting. I don't want to lose this look or style or suspension. I just want to modify some geometry on it.

My brain runs around 100mph so I sometimes forget to finish stories. When I first started going to his shop, he treated me as any other nobody who walked in off the street. Over the past few months, we have become much closer and what I would consider to be friends. As he has seen me building and how... specific... I can be about things, he has realized that I'm not the average joe-blow slappin together a hotrod.

Basically, the group consensus is: we think there is going to be roll center issues and we KNOW there are serious ackerman angle problems. The upper mounts for the A-arms are a slight bit off-center. The passenger side upper A-arm mount is a bit forward of the drivers side. I saw a video of this car running back in the mid nineties and the sucker flat out worked. You gotta remember, our tracks ain't the same around here as most other places.. We're racin in fishbowls, 12 second laps and all. What works around here doesn't work everywhere and that's why this clip was still around.

I included this pic to better demonstrate the style of suspension to the more unfamiliar.

I like it as it is - short and stubby! But a 10" move of the front suspension might be even better - not more than that or it'll look like your trying to copy a suicide front end. All bets are off if you put a radiator up there.

I'm not trying to stretch it out. I like 'er all squished up!!!

 

[skull]

ok

justsomeguy ''I'm not trying to stretch it out. I like 'er all squished up!!!''

me too [cl

good thought process, l like the fact you take safety and handling seriously

Later