starter problems

[26Troadster]

ok i'm at witts end on this one. i have a 350 chevy i built about 16 years ago, and i bet it doesn't have 20,000 miles on it because of starter problems. this may get long winded but please stick with me here. from day one of having this motor built i have been at the starter, at first i though it was to close, but the more i shimed it the worst it got. one day replacing a broke starter i was in real tight so i put it on with out the shims so i could get it up on the ramps, it started better. so with in mind i got to checking in some old books i had and found where i could use a 1/8" welding rod between the teeth of the flexplate/flywheel and the starter shaft to check the fit. mine was real loose as you could rattle it. i milled .082 off the starter mount area which doesn't leave alot of meat, and shimed the outer bolt, closer but not enough. on starter number 5 i had the motor out and upside down on a motor stand, new flex plate, new starter, milled about .080. bolt starter on, try shimming, still not enough. take a 9" grinder and ground the starter mount pad on block, get out machine square and sanding pads and relevel the pad and make it square again, now i had to make new starter bolts so the knurle could keep the starter tight, set everything up shims on outer bolt, better fit this time still alittle loose but alot better. motor in car starts alot better but still the best way to crank this motor is to get it spinning and then lite the plugs and hope like hell it doesn't kick back. today trying to start the motor it kicked back and got starter number five. have had a castiron bellhousing behind this motor with the old three bolt bellhousing mounted starter and it starts fine, no kick just a smooth start. when checking the fit with the bellhousing mounted starter the same i check with the block mounted starter and the 1/8" rod is snug. i have been thought about getting the block plate for a lakewood scattershield that has the old three bolt starter mount holes (can't remember the number at the moment) and putting it between my motor and trans and see if that might help, as i do have some of them old starters, but i belive the plate could flex being it is only about 1/8" thick, maybe some struts. i would hate to buy a high price mini starter and as soon as i get it start milling metal off. i really belive the bolt holes are drilled to far to the outside of the block, but i want to keep it auto. i'm open to suggestions.

 

[sgtpontiac]

Wow.......

So the block is for a block mounted starter and it was ok with the old 3 bolt bell housing starter? No problems until auto went in.....new flex plate...
I've never seen a block drilled wrong.... when you say kick back are you talking the engine kicks back while cranking or the starter stops cranking and then reengages? I've seen them pretty far off and not break the nose off..is / are the flexplates set up for the staggerd bolts or straight across? straight use 153 tooth and the staggered us 168 tooth flexplates.....normally....that said which do you have? Just trying to cover all the bases.....maybe spark a thought of what you might want to consider......[S

 

[26Troadster]

it is the 168 and i have used both the stagered and i had a straight for a 168 too. the teeth are not ingaged tight enough and if the motor try's to kick instead of cranking it brakes the nose. i can use either the flex plate or the flywheel and the bellhousing setup and it never kicks back it is always smooth, as soon as i go back to the block mounted starter it is a whole different motor, it don't matter if the trans is behind it or not. i have never had this much trouble out of a starter before. i guess i should have said that this motor came out of a 1 1/2 ton truck that used a bellhousing mounted starter from the factory, just makes me wonder if it is like a second/blim motor. this motor is in my roadster so i don't have alot of room to go with the stick, i may just have to put this motor in something else and build another.

 

[sneakysnake]

I went through this one time. I swapped starters,I shimmed.It even broke the outer ear on the block before all was said and done. Never did get it perfect wound up swapping motors and that fixed it. Sorry I have no advice just know I feel your pain.

 

[donsrods]

Are you using the bracket that attaches from the back of the starter (the end opposite the nose) and goes to the block? That bracket is designed to keep the starter from being jerked sideways when cranking.

Don

 

[chevellelovermichael]

where are you buying starters from? there are a lot of off shore parts that are just junk. i have heard of someone going thru 5 alternators before they got a working one. just a thought.

 

[donsrods]

That is a good point too, all starters are not created equal. I would buy a brand new Delco starter, use a front support bracket (even Summit sells them for about $ 10), use the proper shoulder bolts (Chevy had metric and sae, don't mix them up) and torque the starter bolts to 45 lbs. Make sure the shoulders don't come out too far so the starter is being falsely torqued.

I had fits with one of the Powermaster mini starters on the sbc in my 23, finally tossed it out and bought a regular old chevy starter, no more problems.

Don

 

[26Troadster]

starters, one was a org. chevrolet, one was auto zone, the other three where napa delco's. at the rate it is going i'll be doing something different.

 

[26Troadster]

yes i have used the rear bracket and i have done it without it,

 

[donsrods]

The one thing that intriques me about your engine is when you say it kicks back. What is making it do that? Normally, when you start spinning a motor over it just keeps cranking. Is is a compression or timing issue?

Don

 

[26Troadster]

the only thing i can figure on that is i have alittle overlap on the cam, low compression. even chevrotet (carl cannon) shop foreman says it is to far away. i had made another post but i don't see it so maybe it will show up, that was alittle more detail.

 

[26Troadster]

i got a scale (ruler) out yesterday and messured the bolt holes and compared them to another block and they are about 3/32" out to far. there is not enough meat on the starter to make it work so i guess i'll pull the motor and put the stick back behind it. now i got to do another motor, just another set back, i should be used to that.

 

[Dirtyrat]

i got a scale (ruler) out yester day and messured the bolt holes and compared them to another block and they are about 3/32" out to far. there is not enough meat on the starter to make it work so i guess i'll pull the motor and put the stick back behind it. now i got to do another motor, just another set back, i should be used to that.

I'm curious, if this is an "odd ball" motor is there a chance there is a different flexplate or starter designated for this motor?

I say weld a plug in the bellhousing and re-drill it if there is enough room.

 

[26Troadster]

with the old early 60's chevy bellhousing and three bolt starter everything works great. the block mount holes in the block are whats off. i have thought about pluging them and drilling new ones but i would have to do alot of stuff to get a setup on my mill to do it. i belive another motor will be easier. i might just drag out a 455 olds and a swich pitch trans to go in place of the chevy.

 

[rainman]

I have one question, do you know what year the block is??

When they first started going from bellhouse to block mount starters,
if my memory is correct, there were two or three different noses for the
starters!! To be honest it doesn't seem like any of them moved the starter
in or out, but I could be wrong on that!
My point is , it's possible you have a rare type block, and if you get the right year could be a fix!!
Just a thought!!

One other thing, have you tried the offset starter with the bigger flywheel to see how close it is to engaging??

 

[26Troadster]

the motor came out of a late 70's big truck 1 1/2 ton or bigger (one came with the motor) that used the bellhousing mounted starter. i'm pulling the motor next week, i got a newer chevy 350 that is going in it's place. rare no, second maybe.

 

[52 fordman]

327 starter troubles

My 327 chewed up 2 starters in less then a week shimmed no shims etc.... 168 tooth ring gear. went with a starter from a 79 caprice 350 works great no troubles now I used the brace on the back end to the block on all of them, off set bolt pattern.

hope this helps any one else who may have a problem.

52 fordman

 

[52 fordman]

starter/ring gear!

Well this starter didn't last long. Thought I was good to go on this. Well I took some advice from a guy who use to race. Told me to go and get a ring gear flex plate that is sold from the local performance shop. And get a high torque mini starter.
So after pulling the ring gear and putting in the new one with the mini starter its all better, no noise or any thing sound like a new truck starting.
Old ring was chewed up and starter was not good. Now the new starter/ring gears mesh well and engage all the way together.



52 fordman

oh ring gear was $70 and starter was $155 but was worth it.

 

[sgtpontiac]

Money is no object.....right???

Kidding....just glad you got it fixed.....[cl

 

[26Troadster]

i have been trying to get my car from the carport to the garage (to many honey do's) to change the motor, i ended up breaking another starter, so i'm pulling the motor in favor of a 89 model 454 with 79000 miles. now i get to build another set of headers.