Steering question.

[YBeNormal]

I'm going to sound like horrible but I have an idea. Will it work?

On a model a axle the steering rod goes off the bottom of the spindle towards the cab so the steering bar crosses under the engine.

Can you switch spindles left to right to flip the steering rods towards the front to have the steering bar in front of the axle?

 

[RPM]

Yes the tie rod can be run in front of the axle.

 

[Blue Eyed Devil]

Is it done? Yes. Good idea? Nope.

It throws the ackerman angle all out of whack and affects handling. More importantly it is a huge safety hazard. Hit something in the road and bend the tie rod - If you're lucky you'll be going home for a change of pants. Not so lucky and you won't live to tell about it.

It also looks like you don't know how to build a car with the tie rod in the proper location. It's really not that difficult...

 

[YBeNormal]

Is it done? Yes. Good idea? Nope.

It throws the ackerman angle all out of whack and affects handling. More importantly it is a huge safety hazard. Hit something in the road and bend the tie rod - If you're lucky you'll be going home for a change of pants. Not so lucky and you won't live to tell about it.

It also looks like you don't know how to build a car with the tie rod in the proper location. It's really not that difficult...

I thought Ackerman angle only came into affect while turning?

I hope to god I don't hit anything in the road. I would assume just running suicide front and hitting something would have the same pants changing experience.

I am going to be running a cenpen setup and the tie rod turns into a Clearence issue when raising and lowering that is my reasoning for wanting to move it to the front side of the axle.

 

[dmw56]

Probably a million T-buckets do it and if set up properly with the correct bolt-on steering arms there will be no Ackerman issues. As far as hitting something you'll be in deep doo-doo either way.

Mine had steering arms that maintained the correct Ackerman.

 

[papamike]

Probably a million T-buckets do it and if set up properly with the correct bolt-on steering arms there will be no Ackerman issues. As far as hitting something you'll be in deep doo-doo either way.

Yep, what he said

 

[YBeNormal]

thanks for the pics DMW

I like your setup I eventually want to run mine the same as yours. Right now i am looking to use the factory spindles from the model A that i have already have.

So will the factory setup not work?
if not how can you put that style steering arms on a factory spindle and cut off the factory steering arms?

 

[dmw56]

Model A spindles will not work. You will want to go to hydraulic brakes and you'll need 37-48 spindles.

 

[donsrods]

David, someone once said something I never forgot, it went "Of all the sins you can commit when building a straight axle front end, bad ackermann is the least of them." Yes, in the perfect world you put the tie rod behind the axle, but in the real world you sometimes have no choice.

My 23 had to have it in front because of no room behind, and I didn't even use those special arms that move them outboard to try to create some ackermann. I drove that car almost every day for 3 years, took a lot of 300 mile trips on the interstate, and it never had any issues with handling. The ony time I noticed any difference from my 27 (which has the tie rod behind) was when parking in a tight spot the tire would scrub a little. That was it.

And, as was mentioned, a million T buckets and similar cars are running around with them just that way with no problems at all. Here is how I had to do it on my 23.

Don

 

[rainman]

The only way the ackerman will have an ill effect on it is during slow turns, (as in parking and maneuvering in tight spaces)!! I have mine like that, but am thinking of bending my arms to change the effect! Just haven't figured exactly which way I need to go as of yet!! I'm pretty sure if you straighten the arms, the ackerman will be reduced if not eliminated!! I know some will cringe at the thought of bending the arms, but if done slowly with heat I don't foresee any problems!!
That my story and I'm sticking to it!

PS: I don't have a time set on doing this but when I do I'll let you know how it works out!!

 

[donsrods]

Rainman, the idea of bending the arms when they are in front of the axle is to bend them out, closer to the backing plates. There is this imaginary triangle that starts at the centerline of the rear axle and extends to the kingpins. The goal is to get the steering arms to intersect that imaginary line.

I could have heated and bent the ones on my 23 outward a little, but as you can see in the picture I was running finned Buick drums that took up that space. So I just left them unbent.

Some people, like Total Performance used to sell specially bent arms to correct some of the ackermann.

Don

 

[rainman]

Thanks Don, I was hoping someone knew which way to go. I haven't sat down and really looked at it, but thought in would be the way to go!
I do know one thing, my stock 40 front end has a LOT of ackerman!!
At 20 degrees of turn it's well over an inch, and scrubs tires a lot when parking, or turning on grass, or loose gravel!!

BTW YBE, sorry to highjack you're thread, even though it is on topic!!

 

[YBeNormal]

It's all good rain. Every question helps

 

[blurooster]

bend the arms out toward the wheel as far as you can. I have done it this way and you can't get right but you can get it closer. Ackerman effects turning where do you drive that you don't turn?

 

[Torch]

the line through the rear axle thig i think is only accurate when the tie rod is behind the axle

Ackerman is the inside tire turing tigher than the outside because the inside radius of a turn is different than the radius 6 feet farther out.
essentially the front end of the car swings around the turn wider than the rear causing the car's path to not be tangent to the circle
This is why the path of the car around a corner is not circular but is parabolic.

if you looked at the car going around the circle from overhead the front axle is not lined up with the center of the turn...the nose of the car is pointed out...
If turning left... the right wheel is further behind the left wheel on a line drawn from the center of the front axle to the center of the circle.
That's in addition to being on a different radius
While sitting still ackerman appears to put the front wheels out of line with each other on a turn but graph it out and each wheel lines up perfectly with it's own path.

 

[Sam_Fear]

Nope T-mann, it still works ahead of the axle too.

 

[zzrodder]

The Ackerman effect is created by the angling of the steering arms toward the center of the vehicle, this causes the inside wheel to turn sharper when turning so the tires don't scrub. The need for it is because the inside tire follows a different radius in turns. Speed has no effect on this, but the degree of turn does - a sharper turn creates a greater difference between how much the inside and outside tires must turn.
As others have pointed out, putting the tie rod in front of or behind the axle has absolutely no effect on Ackerman as proven by all the OEM vehicles with front steer. It's all in the angle of the steering arms - if they worked right when behind the axle, simply flipping them in front won't affect it.

Maybe I was sleeping in geometry class [S but it seems to me if you move the steering arms closer to the wheel, that would reduce the Ackerman effect wouldn't it ??

 

[gold03]

Almost every 4X4 I have driven has the steering out in front of a solid axle. My gold 2003 Jeep Rubicon (gold03)is that way from the factory. If I turn real tight on pavement it chirps all four tires. The front because of Ackerman, the rear because of the locker.

I would imagine that a hot rod with split bones and tall tires will not have to much scrub because of the reduced turning radius. Radius can be reduced from the tire rubbing on the bone.

Gold03

 

[Bamamav]

But can you reverse the spindels on a IFS? Mine is front steer, I'd like to go rear steer to clean it up a bit in front.

 

[zzrodder]

But can you reverse the spindels on a IFS? Mine is front steer, I'd like to go rear steer to clean it up a bit in front.

In theory it should work just fine, though the calipers would end up being in front of the spindles. Other than looking odd, it may have an adverse effect, depending on the design of the IFS you are using. There must be a reason why just about every front end I can think of places the calipers behind the wheels.......[S