more z'ing questions

[joehalford01]

I've got a few more questions guys - let me know if you have the answers

I've been spending some time studying pictures of z's that others have done on chevy trucks (not all the same year). My understanding of a z is that you cut the frame between the suspension and the body. lift the frame piece with the suspension however much you want to z, keeping everything parallel, straight, and level with the rest of the frame. Weld it together, box it in, etc. I've seen several pics where it almost looks like they left some space between the frame rails and made the z section almost like an s. I'm thinking this is an illusion i'm picking up studying finished boxed in z's where everything is already ground smooth, etc. Is that right? Or is there more to a z then i'm realizing?

I've also noticed that the majority of people (every pic i've seen ) seem to z the frame with the suspension in tact. Is there another reason for doing this besides not wanting to take the time to remove the suspension? I would think it would be easier to handle the frame with the suspension removed. I'd remove it all as one piece though, otherwise i'd never figure out how to put it back together .

 

[Gastrick]

Personally Joe, I'd determine how much "z" that I wanted in the frame. Then I would transfer the axle centerlines to the frame by marking the frame with whatever means suits you. I would then remove all of the suspension, set the chassis level and stationary on stands or a homade jig. I would then draw a chassis centerline and axle centerlines on the floor below the now stripped and stationary chassis. Then you can cut, "z", and weld the chassis back together while working off of the lines that you made on the floor as reference points. Drop a plumb off of the marks on your chassis to the marks on the ground. Is this clear?

As for the "s" that you see in some frames. Yes, there are people that actually do fabricate short "s" shaped frame sections to make the transition appear smoother. In other cases, it's just the reinforcement braces that some add in the "z" that gives the appearance of an "s".

 

[FlatBroke]

Joe,
I think we have been looking at some of the same pics over there. This is something that I have been interested in doing to my truck as well, but I'm just not sure I have the knowledge it takes to pull it off. Wonder how hard it would be to find a bare chassis in a junkyard around here?

 

[chopper tom]

I'm with gastric too but i would like to say to not weld any thing [only tack welds] untill you put it all back together [mock up ]and see how every thing jives .I know it's a lot of exstra work but alote of time it pays off to mock it up before finall welding.I guess thats why some people leav the suspention on ,but i like to work with the bare frame so it's easyer to flip over and do a better job.just some thoughts.

 

[Gastrick]

I forgot to add this: Tack weld some temp cross members in the frame in front of, and behind your "z" cuts. This is to keep the frame rails from "springing" in or out when you cut them.

 

[joehalford01]

i appreciate all the help guys, i understand everything gas except for one thing, what are the axle centerlines? i understand what your saying about marking the floor in relationship to the marks on the frame and i think i know what you mean by axle centerline but i'm not 100%. I need to be 100% before i start cutting . I was also considering the temporary cross-members as you said so i'm glad you brought it up because i probably wouldn't have done it if you hadn't said anything.

I think you guys are right about the suspension as well, it's more work but i'm sure it would be worth the extra effort.

Flat - i'm not sure i have the knowledge either , but i'm going to give it my best shot and see what i can do. I'll never know if i don't try.

 

[Gastrick]

You can do it Joe. And you'll be proud of yourself when you are done. If you get in a jam just post a question and I'm sure someone will be able to help out and talk you through it.

By chassis center line I mean a line from front to rear down the exact center of the chassis.

By axle center lines I mean lines from side to side exactly where the centerline of the hubs are. They should be equal to your wheelbase when marked. Make sure the front steering is centered before marking.

Everything can be squared off of these simple lines on the ground. TIP. Make the marks, Then snap a chalk line across them to form your lines. Then spray some clear on the chalk lines to protect them. Or if you have one of those laser levels, you can shoot a laser across your marks and then draw over them with a sharpie.

 

[joehalford01]

You can do it Joe. And you'll be proud of yourself when you are done. If you get in a jam just post a question and I'm sure someone will be able to help out and talk you through it.

By chassis center line I mean a line from front to rear down the exact center of the chassis.

By axle center lines I mean lines from side to side exactly where the centerline of the hubs are. They should be equal to your wheelbase when marked. Make sure the front steering is centered before marking.

Everything can be squared off of these simple lines on the ground. TIP. Make the marks, Then snap a chalk line across them to form your lines. Then spray some clear on the chalk lines to protect them. Or if you have one of those laser levels, you can shoot a laser across your marks and then draw over them with a sharpie.

Clear as mud, I can't wait to get started. Thanks dude.

 

[35Mastr]

Just to add before you cit.I would miter the cuts also.I am not sure on the angle.It will be stonger when you start going back together.

 

[luckyfasteddie]

why do a zee ?

There are two types of frames. Factory frame that you are going to reuse with modifacations which can include a zee front and/or back , a c notch in the rear, changing the front suspension Ie going from leaf or parallel springs to Ifs. Going from a six to an 8 means modifications to the frame , How much ground clearance will you be comfortable with. your scrub line can become an issue if you experience a blow out at high speeds. Are you gonna chanel your cab. will any of these changes affect your steering col location, Any time you change something on a stock frame you are subject to clearance issues. Remember Eddies rule of 5 ,change one thing now and down the line you will find it has affected 5 other things that you didnt forsee. you can minimize a lot of these problems by building your frame. to do this you need a frame jig , a good welding rig and of course be an excellent welder . I have built two rods and during construction they both have been completly apart -every nut and bolt at least 3 times . You must know how every thing works and fits together so you wont do something wrong . You have to know about caster and camber ,toe in ,ackerman , some geometry, stress and strains a modification causes. Big engines cause frames to twist etc. we had to do something as simple as the strut tower 3 times to get it right at least i think its right,really wont know till it bends again. With out a computer model and a R&D staff lots of things you do are trial and error. If you dont have tools and equipment before you start you will be buying them as you progress or borrow them from a friend who has them.Lots to think about and plan for before the first wrench is lifted.If you dont crawl before you walk you will crash when you run LFE

 

[FlatBroke]

LuckyFastEddie,
you are a very wise man.

 

[35Mastr]

LuckyFastEddie,Now this is a man that has done his homework.Joe just cut it and figure as you go along.Do the centers as Gastrick explained.Then just cut it.I know its hard being thats its your first one.But its just metal.If you mess it up you can always fix it.That is how we all learn.Being that it is the first one and you may not be all that sure of centers.I would leave the suspension together.Weld in a crossmember at both front and rear cuts.Snapping a line on the ground before you start.Using jacks or stands with the tires that you will be using stabalize both ends.Then do your frame work in between.You are most likley,Like myself and will be doing this by yourself.Then just check it across and diagonally for square.Before you weld it all up.Tack everything first.Check it then recheck it.Ask many of what I call Dumb questions.Which arent really."But I like to make sure before I finish welding".Just make sure that your welds are going to be Good and Hot.If you have any question on them.Then just put in real Hot Tacks.Keep the temp crossmeber in and have a real welder and finish it up.Thats my .02 for now.

 

[joehalford01]

thanks LFE and mastr, I plan to do a mixture of both. I've done alot of research so far and i'm not in a rush but at the same time i know that i can't anticipate everything and will have to figure some things out as i go. I will probably get everything laid out and measured this weekend, hopefully cut and tack if i have time. Pick up steel during the week and finish it up next weekend. I only have one full day off a week with two jobs so i move slow.

 

[joehalford01]

life got in the way as usual, between cleaning the house, getting a christmas tree, and being "forced" out to dinner with the family, i was only able to get about three hours in on the truck. I was finally able to pressure wash it in the day-light. Got everything unbolted and stored away that was in my "z'ing area- brake and fuel lines and transmission linkage. Then my goal was to get the suspension down to a couple bolts so i could easily bolt it unbolt is as an assembly as needed. Almost got there but didn't finish. On that note though, i have to say that a $12 propane torch kit from lowes is as handy as pickle when messing with this stuff. The heat really helped me get some of those rusty arse bolts loose. Hopefully i can get out there Tuesday night and get it all ready for next weekend.

 

[joehalford01]

i got all my loose ends tied up tonight, so it looks like i'll be z'ing it this weekend (i hope). I got the frame "level" but heres the thing. My slab isn't level (close but not as it should be) for one and my jack-stands are not all exactly the same. The flat section of frame right in the middle (where the cab goes) is level and so is the front crossmember section. The bubble isn't exactly in the center, it goes a tad to one side but it's still in-between the black lines (on my level). I know this is all good for construction but is that good enough for frame work? Should i be shimming it on the jack-stands to get it 100% perfect? I'm not trying to be lazy, i'll take the time to get it perfectly level if thats what i need to do, but if it's totally un-necessary i don't want to waste my time either. thanks guys, any input is appreciated.

 

[joehalford01]

ttm........

 

[luckyfasteddie]

Anal

Good point you raise Joe.I am a little bit anal about being as prepared as possible before i start.If you start level and plumb you have at least a chance of finishing that way. I mark the location of the wheels on the floor of my garage . Then i made each spot level with each other I build up the low spots with plywood pads till all were level with each other. If you move the veh you can find the spots and put the veh back on level.I always have my wheels and tires picked out and on site before I start. You need the wheels to establish clearances -both up and down and side to side.Also wheels of the same size help keep the frame level side to side. This is what worked for me. I set the front axle up with wheels on , measured the wheel base i wanted and set the rear axle up with wheels on . Then i put my mocked up 2x4 under cabwood frame where i wanted the cab to be . I set mine at 5"of ground clearance then i sat the cab on the wood frame to see how it looked we adjusted the rear axle closer to the cab for the bobber look and moved the front axle out a corresponding amt. My wheel base is 120". Took the cab off and built a 2x4 frame connecting the front axle and the rear axle to the frame. We looked at it anfine tuned it for about a week. My friends got tired of setting that cab on and off. after I had it where I wanted it I cut the metal by copying my wood frame pattern . tacked it to gether and took it to a welder who clamped it to a steel table and welded it together. When i took ratzilla to be lined up the alignment man said we had the axles with in 1/16 of an inch of being parallel with each other.You start on the money and you can finish on the money. This is a little long winded but i really dont know what part of this process you can skip or not do as exact as possible.If any one has an easier or quicker way let Joe hear it No one person has all the answers.LFE I know Im not the only wood frame builder here. You really only get one chance to do your frame right