Crates I beaM ... more thoughts please

[23crate]

ok,, so a work buddy suggested a place he had dealt with..

turns out they will heat treat the axle to a steak charring 1650 F annealing it to its natural state .. and chuck in a crack test for less $ 150 + abit of freight.

speaking with them they have indicated they have had good success, and were clear about what I asking ..

is this worth a crack you think ???

thanks again

that dam crate guy...

 

[dutch]

Price sounds good to me...

I`m no expert on heat treating anything cast, but what ingredients did ford use in the steel? and who told the company they need 1650 to anneal it? and for how long? and then whats needed to get the steel hardened again...?
Maybe I`m not seeing things right here, but it`s your front axle and if something`s not right or the company made a mistake, your hair-do is going to be a mess when it snaps

 

[donsrods]

Is this the free axle you mentioned earlier ? If so, I would pass on it myself. Early Ford axles are a dime a dozen, usually bringing around $50, depending on the year. It doesn't make economic sense to spend $150 trying to correct one when you can get a mint one for a lot less. I just bought a brand new 4 inch dropped axle from Speedway for my 27, and it was only around $280. The axle under my rpu project was only $100 and it was a brand new old stock axle that still had the Ford dealers part number tag attached, so they are out there.

Maybe take it, remove the brakes and spindles, and scrap the axle.

Don

 

[05snopro440]

ok,, so a work buddy suggested a place he had dealt with..

turns out they will heat treat the axle to a steak charring 1650 F annealing it to its natural state .. and chuck in a crack test for less $ 150 + abit of freight.

speaking with them they have indicated they have had good success, and were clear about what I asking ..

is this worth a crack you think ???

thanks again

that dam crate guy...

Price sounds good to me...

I`m no expert on heat treating anything cast, but what ingredients did ford use in the steel? and who told the company they need 1650 to anneal it? and for how long? and then whats needed to get the steel hardened again...?
Maybe I`m not seeing things right here, but it`s your front axle and if something`s not right or the company made a mistake, your hair-do is going to be a mess when it snaps

Annealing to 1650°F is about right, however it would need to be tempered afterwards to get some strength back. The exact tempering temperature depends on what grade of steel it is and what strength you need. And when you anneal it there's a good chance of it warping.

An axle is pretty important, do you want to take your chances that it won't break, or spend your money on a new one?

I know which route I would go. That would make nice garage/yard art

 

[Blue Eyed Devil]

I know which route *I* would go. I have seen lots of pictures of broken/fractured NEW aftermarket axles, but have NEVER seen any evidence of a original Ford axle failing. None. Zero. Ford pioneered metallurgy farther than any other company, and the vanadium steel used in their axles is some of the finest ever produced.

Ford produced the twisted axles below to display at dealerships & trade shows to demonstrate their strength. Would you attempt this with a "modern" Chinese aftermarket axle?

 

[dutch]

That may be so, but the best quality steel will fail if not treated right. You won`t be able to twist like that when cold and you won`t drive it when hot, so that twist doesn`t tell me that much... you probably won`t be able to twist a chinese axle like that at any temp though

I would use this axle over a new chinese any day, but I don`t understand anyone taking any kind of risk with a front axle [S

 

[05snopro440]

That may be so, but the best quality steel will fail if not treated right. You won`t be able to twist like that when cold and you won`t drive it when hot, so that twist doesn`t tell me that much... you probably won`t be able to twist a chinese axle like that at any temp though

I would use this axle over a new chinese any day, but I don`t understand anyone taking any kind of risk with a front axle [S

Dutch is right, there's no deformation on that axle in the twisted areas so it wasn't twisted at room temp, it was heated.

Chinese steel gets a bad rap. There is crappy Chinese steel and products, and there is good quality stuff, equivalent to or in some cases better than what we get here. Those are more costly, though.

I'm a Metallurgical Engineer, so I deal with various issues relating to steels day in and out at work. I've seen local hot rodders break both new and original axles. All this discussion is exactly why I'm planning on putting a NEW forged axle in my RPU.

 

[23crate]

thanks guys !! really interesting discussion going on here...

we here have had some issues here with a new brand axle starting with M and ending in M snapping and local NZ rodders were warned not. to use them

while I am all for safety of others / myself, I do wonder as to the validity of annealing / crack testing / re tempering . here if we do something like this we like to think it will meet expectations. I think I will talk to these guys some more before I go ahead

we pay $500+ for a socal axle .. old original fronts here from $250 up, which a required to be crack tested before road use. having said that - if annealing removes any stresses in the axle, re=tempering and crack testing would seem as safe as it could be - old or new ..

the heattreaters say theyve done many axles over some good number of years with the only issue being recently when a certifier refused a car, because there is no quailification offered for crack testing in this country... that was a first .. given our air force does a lot of crack testing..


im really interested to hear more about this ...

 

[donsrods]

Oh yeah, I missed the part about you not being here in the States. Axles here are cheap to buy and no testing needed.

Carry on.

Don

 

[TIMOTHALE]

truck axle alignment.

I bought a Ford Pickup that had been crashed. The front end shop bent it cold to reset the alignment. I bought a dropped 37 ford car axle and used the hyd press at school to straighten it. bent cold.

 

[TIMOTHALE]

info from 1913

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SU19130223.2.312

 

[Blue Eyed Devil]

I've seen local hot rodders break both new and original axles.

If you have actually seen a original Ford axle broken on the street you should have taken a picture, because you would be the first...

 

[Blue Eyed Devil]

Yes, the axle WAS twisted at room temperature. It was done several times by Ford, and it is well documented. Done in a massive lathe, thus the uniformity of the twist...

 

[05snopro440]

If you have actually seen a original Ford axle broken on the street you should have taken a picture, because you would be the first...

There's really no point in taking a photo because you don't know what was done to that particular axle. But yes, I have seen a broken original.

My point is that on an 80+ year axle you have no idea what has been done to it in its life. That's the most important part of the front suspension, I wouldn't take the risk.

The axle you show twisted is inconsequential anyways, as it was probably newly manufactured so that knew exactly what the heat treatment condition of it was. On an axle that has been welded, dropped, or cold worked, the material microstructure is not the same anymore.

 

[dutch]

hm... if this is done cold, I really don`t see any value in heat treating / annealing.

 

[Blue Eyed Devil]

There's really no point in taking a photo because you don't know what was done to that particular axle. But yes, I have seen a broken original.

The point is you would have some extremely rare evidence with that photo. Hen's tooth in a haystack rare. I've been working with original Ford axles for over 20 years and I'm telling you, it just isn't out there. Stories are just that - stories. Original Ford axles aren't broken on the street. Seen HUNDREDS of accident photos with bent originals, some damn near in half and some pretzels too. However I've only seen ONE, yes one actual physical photograph of a broken original FORD axle and that was in a 100+ MPH rollover crash at El Mirage in the late 40's.

Besides, anytime a axle is worked, repaired, dropped, etc. it should be magnaflux tested. It doesn't matter if it is 80 years or 8 minutes old. If it passes that it's good to go and more trustworthy than a new offshore made piece...

 

[klink]

I agree with Blue Eyed Devil...

23Crate, can you put a dimple in it with a center punch? If so then it's not hard. I do not believe these axles were heat treated (which would make them hard). These axles are forgings which is why they could twist them up. I don't see why this axle can't be saved. Blue Eyed Devil is correct; you never see failures with early originals.

 

[kenny c]

Did ford make a cast axle for one year? I seem to remember reading that somewhere, but I may be dreaming.

 

[23crate]

23Crate, can you put a dimple in it with a center punch? If so then it's not hard. I do not believe these axles were heat treated (which would make them hard). These axles are forgings which is why they could twist them up. I don't see why this axle can't be saved. Blue Eyed Devil is correct; you never see failures with early originals.

Klink, without working up a sweat, definitely able to mark the axle with a 1.5lb and a small nail punch

 

[23crate]

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SU19130223.2.312

great info on this link thanks !