F body rant

[Bamamav]

The 88 Firebird Formula we got in trade for the Vette has got an exhaust leak. It started small, has gotten now where it sounds like a log truck. I ordered a new manifold just in case that was the problem, figured I'd just swap it out and everything would be OK. I haven't had time to fool with it, so the wife got a price from a local shop to do it, outrageous, starting at $500, maybe up to $1500 if the snapped any bolts off and had to pull a head. Figured I'd just do it myself and save $500, now I know why they want so much. It is pretty much impossible to change a passenger side manifold with the engine in the car. It has studs, not bolts holding it on, and they are long enough you could never get the manifold over them and past the heat/AC box. That is, if you could even get a wrench or socket on them to start with! You can't even change the spark plugs from the top, you have to go underneath the car to get to them. It sure looks like the engine and trans will have to come out. ****poor design if you ask me. No wonder you don't see many 3rd gen Camaro's and Firebird's on the road anymore, when they quit, people just junked them, too much trouble to fix.

So, it will leak until I get my Lincoln back on the road. I've only got the one place where I can use my cherry picker to pull the motor, and the Lincoln has it now. Can't decide if I want to just go ahead and freshen it up while I have it out, or just put in a new set of platinum spark plugs and put it back together and hope for the best. It smokes on first startup, I figure the O rings on the valves are bad. Don't know about how much oil it uses, we haven't burned but a couple of tanks of gas in it, doesn't get driven much. After the initial startup smoke, I haven't seen any smoke come out of it, and it has plenty of power. Decisions, decisions.

Just had to rant about the poor design. They didn't build it to be worked on, that's for sure. No wonder they call it a F body. It's F___ed up for sure.

 

[Old Iron]

I'm glad you posted this Bama.
I have a customer who wants me to install medium length headers on his F body. Sounds like a real pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bamamav]

If you take a look at it and prove me wrong Old Iron, I would be happy!

 

[Torchie]

Not surprising Bama.
By the time your car came out the days of being able to fix them yourself were well on the their way out.
Things like that started after 1969 . Which many of us long time car nuts consider to be the last great year for Production cars.
So much stuff shoehorned into the engine compartment that it looks like my grandmothers kitchen junk drawer.
On my 72 Eldorado convertible you had to pull the engine to change the timing chain.
Torchie.

 

[Bamamav]

After looking at it this morning with a clear head, I think I might be able to just lift the one side. Then again, you know how those mights go.....

Your exactly right Torchie, they started building them to sell, not be worked on. The things that happened while they were under warranty were usually minor, no thoughts were given to down the road. The mfgs wanted you to trade off your old ride and buy new instead of fixing them. That way they made more money. With all the downsizing and the turn to FWD, I pretty much quit working on "late models". Just not enough room.

 

[rustybeercan]

I remember some muscle cars baclk in the day where the only way to change the spark plugs was to loosen the motor mounts and jack the motor up to get it done!

Beercan

 

[Torchie]

I remember some muscle cars baclk in the day where the only way to change the spark plugs was to loosen the motor mounts and jack the motor up to get it done!

Beercan

You are right Beercan but that was the exception and not the norm. First car that I had to do that on was a 1970 Barracuda with a 440 I believe. Plus it depends on what"Back in the day" means to you. For me that would be the mid 60"s. LOL
As my dimming memory recalls it was the PS rear most plug.
Like I said. 1969......
Torchie

 

[Bamamav]

I had a 77 Firebird with the 400, the center and rear plugs you did through the fenderwell. Just push the rubber piece out of the way and there were the plugs. The 88 though, no such luck. Solid metal shock {or strut} towers. Plus so much setback, the AC box is in the way.

That was one thing I liked about the Vette, you could get to most of it from the top.

 

[phil cottingham]

I remember working on my 56 chevy when it was raining. I would sit on the radiator, put a foot on either side of the motor and the hood kept the rain off.

 

[BlueNorther]

I remember seeing a decal on the radiator support of a 1967 Fairlane with a special order 427 MR engine that read :

" Since the motor must be removed every 20,000 miles for new spark plugs, we recommend the rod bearings be replaced also."

they built enough of these things so they could be homogulated as "Stock" cars so NHRA and NASCAR would accept them as stock production vehicles.

 

[Bamamav]

I may have caught a break! After some online study, I found an exhaust parts diagram that shows a doughnut gasket. Seems GM used a sleeved doughnut on the right manifold and a flare on the left. It doesn't show up in a parts search, but it's a good Walker part number, so I ordered one. I took the head pipe off today and sure enough the pipe is flared but the manifold is flat, no way it would seal without the doughnut. Probably got left off when somebody took the cat con off. Fingers crossed that fixes it.......

 

[Torchie]

Fingers crossed that you catch a break on this one Bama........
Torchie

 

[Dr Crankenstein]

Wishing you luck, Bama!

Just a thought... if the flared pipe is out of shape, slather some of this stuff on it...

https://www.permatex.com/products/g...aximum-temperature-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker/

it works, if the gap isn't too big...

.

 

[Bamamav]

I need to get another tube of that. I used it to plug the EGR pipe on the Vette, was surprised it didn't burn out.

 

[Dr Crankenstein]

I've also seen the "silicone" work first-hand. (Some of my racing friends used it in place of a header gasket.) I was surprised to learn "a tube of snot" could do the job, but it served them well and never burned out or leaked...

.

 

[Bamamav]

Success!!!!

Yep, SUCCESS! Got my donut gasket yesterday, put it on today, no more exhaust leak! [cl Gasket and a stud kit only cost me $17 total from RockAuto, much less than the $500 to swap the manifold would have. Guess I bought the manifold for nothing, should have looked at what I had first, but the 75 350 I took out of the Lincoln had beveled manifolds, so I figured the 88 did too, not so. Only flared on the drivers side, other side takes the donut which is flat on top, beveled on the side.

Washed the old girl up to go to a cruise in tonight, washed out the cowl to get the leaves and pine blooms out. Got ready to go, it wouldn't idle. Started down the road, wouldn't run worth a crap, spitting, popping, cutting out. Got mad and went back home. Went to eat in the wife's car, then to Wally World. Got home, I got in the 'Bird and it cranked and ran fine. I must have gotten the coil or distributor wet. Gonna pull the cap tomorrow and spray some WD40 in it, as well as the coil wire, that will stop any more moisture getting in.

Guess I need to get rid of it now while it's running good. My luck with Chevy engines ain't the best.....

 

[Torchie]

Glad you fixed the leak Bama. Work the bugs out and get it cruising.
I was thinking about your issues yesterday as I was helping a friend on his 94 Camaro with a 600 Hp sbc in it. What a total PITA it is to work on.
I'm sticking to the old stuff......
Torchie

 

[Bamamav]

You're right on no room in these late models Torchie. You have to change the plugs on the 88 from the bottom, the engine has to come out to change exhaust manifolds, the starter has to squeak past the exhaust crossover if it has to come out, lots of strange designs on these things. I dunno what the engineers were thinking.

I was looking at Craigslist last night, looked at a 64 Impala and a 67 Galaxie, both had small blocks, and both had TONS of room to work on them! I was thinking, man, how nice it would be to have that kind of room! Plug changes in 10 minutes versus 3-4 hours! Belt changes in 5 minutes instead of an hour to figure out which way to wrap the new belt back on! And this new stuff is supposed to be better? I'm with you, give me the old stuff any day! [cl[cl[cl

 

[smallfoot]

Only one I ever had was always a pia to work on. Wait till the AC breaks down on a long trip and you'll find out how to smell like BBQ pork when ya get home. Without vent windows, I don't think even 270 AC works. Glad ya got it fixed, now dump it for something better. I'm a dedicated Chevy man but the only thing worth saving in one of those is the running gear in my mind...a genuinely toasted thing...

 

[Torchie]

If it was me I would go for the 64 Impala Bama. Last year of a good body style. The 65's on up just lost it for me.
Going to do more work on the Camaro today. Oh Joy.......
Torchie