My Sons car getting a new motor.

[donsrods]

Well, not a new motor, but redone for the 3rd time. When my Son built his 30 rpu about 5 years ago, we built a 455 Olds for it. Right from the start it had engine oiling issues. Two cylinders would oil up after just a few miles of driving and we would have to carry spare plugs with us and change them to get it running well again.

We tore that engine down and found the rings in two cylinders had broken, so we decided to start fresh, bought a new block and also he bought two heads from his Brother that came off of a 66 tripower Olds. We had everything redone by a local race shop, and we assembled it again. This engine also had oil fouling, but in a totally different cylinder !

For 4 years he has put up with that one cylinder not sealing well and finally he decided enough was enough, so we pulled the heads and took them to a different engine builder who went through them and replaced all the valve guides with bronze guides. He said the stainless valves and all that the last builder did were fine, but the guides were just slightly sloppy. But he also felt that the rings were not seating in the cylinders, from what he saw inside the heads.

So, we have decided to quit messing around with an engine that should be a piece of cake to build, and we pulled his engine last night and are going to have this new shop go through it and this time we are going to let them assemble it. This guy, Mark, builds 7 second drag cars for a lot of well known cars, and he is only about 40 miles from us, so the engine should be done right finally.

Dan is also changing out the cam he had, a Comp Cam 280 H, because it is just too radical for the kind of driving we do around town. He is going to have Mark put in a 270H cam, which should be better off the line.......the 280 didn't come in until about 2500 rpms.

Maybe finally Dan will get to use his car without worrying about the plugs getting fouled. Here is a picture of the car last night before we pulled the motor out. We had to jack the body up a few inches off the frame for clearance, but we have pulled this motor so many times we are getting good at it !

Hope the 3rd time is the charm.

Don

 

[Old Iron]

I was lookin for a zipper some where [ddd
Sounds like you made a good choice on changing builders

 

[BlueNorther]

if it's pumping oil in only some of the cylinders, it sounds like some of the top or second rings were installed upside down. this will cause oil be scraped off the walls to be pushed upwards instead of down into the crankcase.

 

[donsrods]

Anything is possible, I guess, but we were so careful when we assembled the second engine, especially after the problems with the first motor. One possibility is that the ring gap is too big. The engine guy we had machine it said to set up the ring gap at .006 per inch of bore, and that seemed a little excessive to us, but we didn't want to break any more rings, so we did it.

It will be interesting to see what the new shop finds when they tear down the short block.

Don

 

[BlueNorther]

yeah, .006" seems loose. I used to shoot for .004" per inch of bore. but I'm not sure the extra .008 to .010" of ring gap would cause the degree of fouling you saw.

Did you stagger the gaps around the bore so that no gaps lined up with each other?

 

[donsrods]

Yep, we took more time assembling this motor than any other we have ever done. My two Sons were there with me when we put it together so that we had three sets of eyes on every step of the process and we double checked to make sure the rings were all gapped perfectly (I even bought a ring grinder just for that job) and that the rings were turned the right way, according to the pictures in the ring packaging. Even the pistons are brand new forged Seal Power pistons and the whole thing has been balanced.

On the first motor, we were getting some oil seepage from the intake ports, so we had the tripower intake angle machined to fit, but we were still getting seepage, even using Mr Gasket gaskets supplied by Mondello. So my Son sprung for a $600 two four intake manifold so that there was no question the fit was right at the intake gaskets. After that, there was no more seepage there.

This whole Olds engine thing has been a mystery. My Sons and I have built a lot of motors, including ones we are currently running in our other cars, and they seal up fine. If anything, a big old Olds 455 should be a cinch to rebuild as they are a lot of heavy cast iron and run for hundreds of thousands of miles in regular full size Olds cars.

I called the new guy yesterday during lunch and basically told him to start from scratch and remachine whatever needs done to make it right this time. He said "That is the only way I do them, so it will seal up for sure this time." I sure hope so.

Don

 

[bruno]

Maybe the 4th time will be charm Good luck, I hope everything turns out right this time.

 

[Old Iron]

Not questioning your engine building ability here.
Just a question that enters my feeble little mind.
Are you using regular motor oil to break these engines in or are you putting synthetic in, to start with.
Rings will have a hard time seating, if at all, with synthetic oils.

 

[donsrods]

No, for break in we have been using Rotella Triple Protection with a can of Lucas Break In additive for the zinc.

Today we dropped off the engine and picked up the finished heads. He did a great job on them, they look like new. We basically told him to do whatever it takes to do this engine right and we feel pretty good that it will be done right this time.

Don

 

[440Clark]

ring compressor?

What are you using for a ring compressor?

 

[donsrods]

What are you using for a ring compressor?

I have this one from Snap On, I really like it:



When we were at the engine guys shop he asked me how I install pistons and I told him I put a little oil on the cylinders and some on the rings and then insert the piston into the cylinder. He said "I was afraid you were going to tell me that. Doing that is 30 year old technology, we now install them dry so they will seat."

I went on the net and researched it and the majority of the people do it like I do, some even dunk the piston into oil first, but since he builds some serious motors I have to think he knows what he is talking about.

Don

 

[bob w]

Maybe just for pistons with coated skirts?

 

[donsrods]

No, the pistons are just Sealed Power forged pistons, no coating.

I just called the engine guy to find out what he has found out so far. He said he found a lot of little things that he wasn't crazy about, and will discuss it with us when we go to pick up the engine. Probably next week or so. When we picked up the heads last week he said there was excessive clearance in the valve guides so he put in new bronze liners and redid them. If those were not right from our first machine shop, then there are probably other machining issues with the rest of the block.

Anxious to get this thing back and installed, Turkey Run in November is rapidly approaching and Dan is building a new exhaust system for the car and has to have the motor back in to finish it up. Then it has to be sent off for coating.

4 months seems like a long time, but not when you are trying to finish up a car.

Don

 

[26Troadster]

don i like to play with the olds motors myself, and this may not be a issue for yall but big block olds are not the same. some use a different cam and lifters because of cam angle and lifter bore size. just something you might want to check. i can't remember the year change. i would of also thought the 280 in a 455 would have been a good grunt cam. anyway i hope it all works out for yall.

 

[donsrods]

That change was in about 1965 when they went from a 39 degree bank angle to a 45 degree angle. My Son Don had a 65 Olds with the 425 engine and it was the older style bank angle.

Don

 

[donsrods]

Dan and I drove down to Naples yesterday and picked up Dan's completed short block from Mike Thompson Race Engines. It could not be nicer. Everything is spotless and he took a lot of extra steps like deburring the block and glass beading everything.

We asked him what he found in the old motor and he said nothing jumped out at him and he didn't really care because he said "I just made it right this time." He degreed the new cam and advanced it 2 degrees to give Dan some more bottom end.

One thing he didn't like was some bearing where on number 8 connecting rod. Looked like low oil pressure to him, so he included a high volume pump with a bolt on pickup screen, instead of the standard pump we ran with a press in screen. He also said he felt the previous machinist had the bores a little tight, so he honed them a few thousands bigger.

When I looked at that engine I can see why pros do such a better job than home hacks, like me. He KNOWS what he is doing every step of the way and makes sure every part is perfect. So happy we found this guy.

Dan is going to have him build a 351 Dart block for his Mustang, and they are talking about a 4 inch crank to take it to 438 cubic inches.

We are getting the car ready to put the motor back in, but we have to wait for some parts come from Summit next week. I will post some pictures of the motor later.

Don

 

[donsrods]

Took some pictures tonight. Here is the engine:








And here are all his parts, all cleaned, bagged, and ready to go back on.





All we need now are some parts that are coming from Summit and we can start putting it back together.


Don

 

[21willys]

Looking good man!

I'm still hoping to come down in November! I need to get my stash built up for the swap meet tho!

 

[earthman]

All the pretty pieces. It's sure to be perfect this time.

 

[Willowbilly3]

I love those engines, real torque monsters but you can't build them like a small block chevy. They make their power at a lot lower rpm and a cam that comes in at 2500 is kinda defeating the engines best assets. Did you put oil restrictors in the bottom? They are notorious for starving the mains at/above 5000 rpm. Fix that and some bad rocker arms with good rollers and that engine will run with the best of them.