Starter stuck in Start mode?

[AZRodDave]

Hi guys! Once again, forgive the newb ...

Came out to drive the '78 Chevy pickup this morning, and no juice. I drove it quite a few times yesterday without problems. So I opened up the hood and found the positive battery terminal had completely melted off! Touch the cable to the battery, and the starter engages and I can see arcing. So, check to find that the wire that goes into the loom off the battery connection at the starter had broken. Put a new end on it and reconnect, and still the same thing.

I am suspecting the starter internals or stuck solenoid, and yes I banged on it a few times. The wiring down there is not so sanitary either, as with a lot of stuff on this truck. I have another starter that is good, so will try swapping that out in the (cooler) morning and clean up the wires if need be. Talked with a friend who said it could also be the ignition switch stuck in Start mode, so I guess I have a lot of poking around to do. Any other ideas or common problems I should be looking for?

As always, thanks in advance.

 

[Bamamav]

Either the switch is stuck or the solenoid is. I'd drop the starter and test it with a set of jumper cables, if it won't cut off, you'll know the solenoid is stuck. If it works normally off the truck, it's the switch. The switch is mounted on the steering column, a rod connects it to the key. If it has slipped due to loose mounting, it could stay in start mode because the rod could move the whole switch instead of the internal slider part of the switch. You might want to look there first, easier than dropping the starter, but my bet is a bad solenoid.

 

[junker39]

You're going in the right direction. I'd check the small wire going to the starter solenoid for power first. That would pretty much eliminate the switch if there's no power when the switch is in run or off. Could be the solenoid crapped out but, I've never seen one just do it while sitting. I guess stranger things have happened. Also check that the little wire hasn't somehow stuck itself to the positive battery wire. Sometimes the manifold heat can do things like that. Good luck.

 

[kenny c]

Is there a relay between the starter switch and the soienoid? If so it may be the problem

 

[sneakysnake]

Is there a relay between the starter switch and the soienoid? If so it may be the problem

Not normally. Disconnect the small wire off the "S" terminal of the sol to see if the contacts in sol are stuck.

 

[Bamamav]

... Also check that the little wire hasn't somehow stuck itself to the positive battery wire. Sometimes the manifold heat can do things like that. Good luck.

I hadn't thought of that, but Dave you said the main cable melted? It's possible when that happened the small wire melted too, making connection with the hot cable.

Thia is the very reason I run a Ford starter relay or solenoid on the fender of a Chevy--your starter will only have power when the relay is energized, not hot all the time like factory GM wiring.

 

[AZRodDave]

Awesome! I appreciate you guys SO much !!!

The consensus of opinion (and knowledge) is ... solenoid fried, stuck in start mode. Makes perfect sense! ... now.

Since this truck sits pretty high (BIG tires), I am going to pull off the starter and test it, then most likely replace the whole thing. Just talked with a longtime mechanic buddy of mine, and he also thinks the solenoid is fried. His words, "I'll tell you exactly what it is." Sure seems like it to me, and the more I read and learn, the more likely that scenario becomes. So I think all your educated guesses are correct! [cl

Will also check ALL the wiring in the area because there was some serious arcing going on, even in broad daylight! Found the one connector broken off, and will also check fuses. THEN try reconnecting the battery. Pretty sure I have some relays around, which sounds like another good idea.

I'm glad there was one of those cheap screw-on type cable ends on this cobbled wreck, otherwise things could have gotten a lot worse!

Thanks for the advice and little photo. That thing is great! Will report back once I know more or have solved the problem.

... unless it rains all night, like it just did. That means there will be a puddle under the thing. I KNEW I shoulda kept my wetsuit from the old surfer days...

 

[AZRodDave]

Old starter out, haven't tested it, but putting in known good starter. Found two broken wires that were badly twisted together and sorta wrapped in electrical tape. I put new wire ends on, and as much as I dislike pinch connectors, used those. Next step, install and test!

Re-routed all the wires to keep them away from the block and exhaust manifold, even shielded them and put the + battery cable in a better place. The moment of truth: touch the negative cable to the battery, and yup, you guessed it = starter spins. Argh!

Okay 'Bama, so about this switch, ...

My buddy is coming by after work, around 4pm. Meanwhile, I'll go delve into this ignition switch. Would one of the symptoms be that the key is hard to get out sometimes? I have others I can swap in if need be. That old brown Suburban gave its life so that others could ride !!!

 

[sneakysnake]

Sounds like time to backtrack why the little wire is staying hot, Stuck switch or melted wires.

 

[AZRodDave]

That's the plan, Stan.

Sounds like time to backtrack why the little wire is staying hot, Stuck switch or melted wires.

Yup, you got it. The more I look (and see) on this truck, the more I find, as far as being a big cobbled-together mess. Ah well, consider it a learning experience.

 

[Bamamav]

OK Dave, this will require a little twisting and turning and laying on your back, but since it's in a truck, it will be a little easier. You want to look on the top side of the steering column about halfway between the wheel and floor. The switch is a long deal, you will be able to find it by following the wiring harness to the plug. What you need to do is take your hand and see if the switch will slide up and down the column. It's supposed to be bolted down tight. If it's moving around, you will need to reset it. Make sure the truck is in park, key in the accessory position, battery undone. Slide the switch down the column until you just feel resistance on it, move it until it reaches the end of it's travel, then tighten it down with the mounting screws. Then turn the key to the start position, the actuator rod should only move the slide part of the switch to the opposite end of it. Hook the battery back up and try it, sometimes it takes a bit of finessing the switch to get it in perfect alignment.

I would also check the wires in the harness, it's possible they have melted together at some point. If all this still fails, you could still run a new trigger wire to the solenoid and use a push button on the dash to activate the starter. You would leave the original trigger wire off of the solenoid. They key switch should still work the ignition circuit, the button would only work the starter, but it would crank in any gear position because you would be bypassing the neutral safety switch.

 

[AZRodDave]

Thanks, Bama!

... I would also check the wires in the harness, it's possible they have melted together at some point. If all this still fails, you could still run a new trigger wire to the solenoid and use a push button on the dash to activate the starter. You would leave the original trigger wire off of the solenoid. They key switch should still work the ignition circuit, the button would only work the starter, but it would crank in any gear position because you would be bypassing the neutral safety switch.

Okay, will try the fix first, and if that fails, then this is starting to sound like a great option! Who knows what might have fried while the short was live and cooking (literally!). Couple of questions if I may:

1) Are there supposed to be two wires connected to the small terminal on the solenoid? I found one that was formerly connected (broken clip, not burnt though) and another that had no end on it, just hanging there loose.

2) Shouldn't the truck keep running without the battery connected? I thought it should run on the alternator even if the battery is not connected.

Again, thanks in advance, and to all who have replied! Hopefully some good news to report tomorrow...

 

[Whyworry]

starter switch

AZ if you are gonna run a push button switch separate from the key I'd recommend taking the 12v from the light side of the brake light switch ... turn switch to ignition ... put foot on brake push the button ..the starter will turn & the vehicle won't take off if you're in gear ...makes for a safer start.

 

[AZRodDave]

That's a darn good idea!

AZ if you are gonna run a push button switch separate from the key I'd recommend taking the 12v from the light side of the brake light switch ... turn switch to ignition ... put foot on brake push the button ..the starter will turn & the vehicle won't take off if you're in gear ...makes for a safer start.

Someone has his thinking cap on this morning. [cl

 

[sneakysnake]

Okay, will try the fix first, and if that fails, then this is starting to sound like a great option! Who knows what might have fried while the short was live and cooking (literally!). Couple of questions if I may:

1) Are there supposed to be two wires connected to the small terminal on the solenoid? I found one that was formerly connected (broken clip, not burnt though) and another that had no end on it, just hanging there loose.

Before HEI there was two wires on Sol, one for "S" came from switch to start and one for "I" that went to dist to bypass resister and give full 12v to ign coil during startup.

The switch on column, the purple wire should be your Sol wire.

 

[AZRodDave]

Join in the craughter!!!

Thanks, snake! Off to give it a go...

------------------------------------

Today I am making up a new word: "craughing." That's when you don't know whether to laugh or cry, so you do a little of both. For me today, mostly laughing ... at myself !!! Feel free to join in:

I got under the dash; more funky "connections" and electrical tape than I care to mess with or try to figure out, though I did find the switch mentioned. So, decided to get the push-to-start button which I had left over from this Miata autocross racer:

Man I miss that car. Anyway, disconnected the 'S' lead off the solenoid and started to trace it back for a good place to splice into, and found that some IDIOT (craugh out loud) had mistakenly pinched the loom in between the engine and trans when he was messing with the idea of swapping out the tranny a few weeks back, but had changed his mind and bolted it back together. The loom dropped in between the two in the meantime, probably shorted out, and caused all this befuddlery. (made up two words in one post!)

So I am taking a little sweating-too-much break and thought I might share my craughter and beffudlery with all of you... ENJOY !!! [cl

 

[AZRodDave]

Well well well ...

Yup, I'm an idiot!

Finally removed the power loom from its 12 volt welded-to-the-block position and put everything back together... New (used) ground wire connected, no spark and engine sitting peacefully... One pump on the gas pedal (as usual) and it fired right up! No smoke, no sparks, no kidding!

Gotta look at this as a learning experience: I learned all about starters and solenoids and ignition switches in the process of correcting an error that probably never should have happened in the first place. But hey, gotta laugh at yourself sometimes and wonder how you survived all these years and all these calamities and for what reason!? Guess I'll chalk this one up to free entertainment for all my RRR friends.

 

[Bamamav]

It's happened to all of us in one way or another, just when you can laugh it off it's so much better. That feeling when you realize, "I am to blame" makes you feel about two inches high and wonder, "How the *&^$#%%^&&% did I do THIS?"

At least the RRR world got an education on starters and switches!

 

[Whyworry]

tis all better

AZ ,AAAAAAAAAAAAhhh !! the things we do to amuse ourselves & .....entertain others

 

[smallfoot]

Yup, keep your humor about you!