Stolen hot rod in florida

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All states are different though, I live in Indiana where there is no inspections on what you drive. If in my case i have a 30 ford, front end is updated to disc brakes rear end is updated to a ford 9 engine is a sbc not the model a engine and the frame is not the factory flimsy model a frame they originally had. I still feel i shouldnt have to title it as a 2012 just because i wanted to turn it into a hot rod and had to update everything based on changing the engine. Again im not ranting but this guy got arrested on charges including fraud on an insurance company and if im in a wreck and they come and take pictures and work this angle they could deny my claim and i could possibly get arrested
 
In Indiana if you want to run antique plates or plates that match the year of your vehicle a state trooper has to inspect your vehicle. But if you just want regular plates no inspection is needed. Kind of dumb IMO.
 
Did you fudge something with your insurance co??? Like nobody else ever has....but fudging a car theft.... he is committing fraud among other things, then he should face the consequences...plain and simple...if not quilty then so be it....
Dougndog....".Nothing new here cops cant find the car so easy target is the guy who owned it......happens all the time in America
How about some real investigation find the car and PROVE who stole it"
Investigation was done....found that paperwork to the state had been allegedly falsified...that IS good investigating....do you really think the cops are going to search house to house looking for it.....nope, they will gather enough evidence to try to get him to reveal what happened to the car......not sure what happened to you in the past but most cops want to find the bad guys and will turn over a ton of stones to do it....if the guy is guilt then he'll pay, if not then he won't....not sure what you expect...[S
"Nothing happened in my past" I just keep abreast of current information. a lot of police do a good job, but their are a lot of cops and more each day who do not follow the laws they enforce. reports of bad cops are at a all time high. All I say is PROVE the crime, not dig till you can come up with something.
 
OK so the guy fudged a few things. It doesn't mean that the car was not stolen. I can't show every reciept for my Dodge, I have a spread sheet that says what I paid for the part and where I got it, but that is it. Same thing I do for every project I have. So the engine wasn't new, I bet he still paid new money, for new parts, or new machine work for this engine, and I am sure after all that he won't except scrap yard price for it! I think this is all a load of crap!

Go find the car! If they find out his buddy is sitting on it then beat him up over it!

My buddies 68 camaro has a motor out of mid 80s truck, does that mean his car is a pieced together car and shouldn't be titled as a 68 camaro?!?!

I think this is all a load of crap! Curious about buying the stuff back at a discount if it was found? if your car was stolen wouldn't you want to know the same thing?!?!?! I would! If it is stolen gaurunteed it was thrashed until it got to a hiding place, I wouldn't pay full price to get it back if it was found, who knows what they did to it?!?! Of course you want it at a discount!

This is the kind of crap that ****es me off. What is the point of having insurance if your car gets stolen and you get sued by your insurance company so they don't have to pay for it!?!? I would almost bet there is no classic car in the world that is not pieced together at some point!

I understand maybe the guy isn't entitled to the whole $70,700 but he is owed something! I see the side of the insurance company but I think they are more trying to weasel out of paying for his car than him lying about what the car is. What a load of crap. No footprints in the sand, anyone that watches CSI knows to scrub them up. Only hole in the wall to get through, anyone ever in that garage probably knew that, all it takes is one dishonest person to cash in on it.

ridiculous.
 
"I feel dirty"- Torchmann... "Did you fudge something with your insurance co???"-sarge [S

No I trusted the guy then this story comes out.
Like waking up from rufies at church camp [P

Here in Nebraska the law says(I paraphrase) it's unlawful to transfer or alter the vin or remove identifying marks to perpetuate a fraud
The law does not say it is unlawful to transfer a vin remove or alter identifying marks if there is no fraud involved.
Since we live in a legal system where anything is legal unless it is explicitly out-lawed, If the law does not explicitly forbid it then it is not illegal.
Our legal system is the opposite of what it is in the rest of the world
Here there is no dispensation of rights from the law, rights are natural liberties and the law rules by restricting liberties not by granting them.
reading the constitution through, there is no authority given to government only power.
The 10th amendment defines a totality of 3 legal entities
federal and state institutions which are given powers
And The People from who powers are given
No-where in the constitution is there a dispensation of authority from the people to government.
To understand this requires the understanding that authority is not power

The constitution is a charter creating government, establishing the laws which are to regulate government, and empowering the institutions with the agency to execute them.

from WIKI- "A charter is the grant of authority or rights, stating that the granter formally recognizes the prerogative of the recipient to exercise the rights specified. It is implicit that the granter retains superiority (or sovereignty), and that the recipient admits a limited (or inferior) status within the relationship, and it is within that sense that charters were historically granted, and that sense is retained in modern usage of the term.
The word entered the English language from the Old French charte (ultimately from the Latin word for "paper"), but the concept is universal and transcends language. It has come to be synonymous with the document that lays out the granting of rights or privileges."

When we British subjects in these American colonies threw off our king we reclaimed the aboriginal sovereignty our ancestors had long ago surrendered to kings.

When we formed a government to secure these liberties we gave it powers but reserved our authority.

But what is authority?

An author is one free to speak and free to act on his word. An author is the master of and owner of his words. If there is a question regarding the interpretation or the intent of a work the author is the authority

By appending the suffix "ity" to the word author you create a new word which is an attribute or quality of the base of the word.
This mechanism applies to every use of "ity" as a suffix in English.

When an author commissions a writer (ghost writer) to create a work for him, the writer is not the author.
The ownership of the words and the rights benefits and powers associated with those words is reserved to the author.
Our founding fathers by prominently beginning the constitution with We The People (in caps so large there is no arguing to the contrary) acknowledged that they are but the writers of the law and not the authors of the law.
As such, the argument that authority over the Constitution belongs only to those who signed it is frivolous.
The Constitution lays down the law that rules over government and subsequent statutes and regulations.
In other words institution has no agency to do other that the law proscribes.
Under the protection of law(protects people):
If the law does not say you cannot, then you can
If the law says you must, then you must.
Under the rule of law(rules institution):
If the law does not say it can..then it cannot
If the law says it shall then it must

When public servants employed in government carry out the duties of the people they are not exercising their or government's authority, they are exercising agency granted under the people's authority.

When the people exercised our liberties to self govern and instituted this system of law the people have exercised through our representatives OUR will by establishing the law and this is why the law is to be obeyed.
You cannot say I don't want to obey the law because I don't like it....
But we obey it because it is our own word which we must keep.
If you don't like it and you don't want to abide by it then you have to convince your peers to instruct our representatives to change it.
That is the only way around it.
it's why the Police have the right and the power to refuse to enforce laws imposed by rouge representatives which the people en masse refuse to abide by...
Not because it's humane... but because it's the will of the people.
Idealistically you could say The will of the people is always superior to the law but you can';t have a majority taking away the rights of a minority.
Practically it's the will of the people within the defined common liberties of the people that is the rule.
Special liberties cannot be construed by law to infringe common liberties.
The right to your personal property is a common right, a shared liberty in common.
If a group of persons as a majority were to steal from a minority it would be the same offense as if one man were to steal from another and the will of the majority would not constitute the will of the people.

So the authority being with the people, the people have the right to do whatever they will except as is restricted by law

So if the law says you cannot remove or alter an identifying mark (vin) to perpetrate a fraud then the law does not restrict a person from removing or altering an identifying mark where the act of doing so is not pursuant to the commission of another crime.

If the guy made an oath or affirmation on a legal document that the coup was NOT a reassembled vehicle then the act of tinkering with the vin by buying a title and stamping the numbers into the frame of a reassembled vehicle does constitute a fraud.

But if I had let's say a 57 belair that was rusted out and I owned it...And it was already titled in my name
and I bought a rust free base model 57 4 door for parts, and used the rust free body shell to restore my belair and I transferred the vin tag over.
I did not commit a fraud because I did not lie on a title application.
If I sell it and tell the buyer I restored it with another car there's no misrepresenting the sale and no fraud
Restoring something that does exist does not create something that did not previously exist
yes I would have removed a vin but would not have committed a fraud by doing so.
The act of removing or transferring the vin does not itself constitute a fraud

Misrepresenting facts on a legal document...
yeah thats a big fraud.
 
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My response to that .......

Ouote Tmann
But if I had let's say a 57 belair that was rusted out and I owned it...And it was already titled in my name
and I bought a rust free base model 57 4 door for parts, and used the rust free body shell to restore my belair and I transferred the vin tag over.
I did not commit a fraud because I did not lie on a title application.
If I sell it and tell the buyer I restored it with another car there's no misrepresenting the sale and no fraud
Restoring something that does exist does not create something that did not previously exist
yes I would have removed a vin but would not have committed a fraud by doing so.
The act of removing or transferring the vin does not itself constitute a fraud

My reply.....
The law says you did....at least in Michigan it does....you cannot transfer a vin tag from one vehicle to another..period....I quote the Michigan compiled laws......

750.415 Concealing or misrepresenting identity of motor vehicle or mechanical device as misdemeanor or felony; evidence of violation; confiscation; sale at public auction; revocation of dealer's license; vehicle identification plate and applicable labels; motor vehicle or part with identification number removed.

Sec. 415.
(1) A person who, without the intent to mislead another as to the identity of the vehicle, conceals or misrepresents the identity of a motor vehicle or of a mechanical device by removing or defacing the manufacturer's serial number or the engine or motor number on the motor vehicle, or by replacing a part of the motor vehicle or mechanical device bearing the serial number or engine or motor number of the vehicle with a new part upon which the proper serial number or engine or motor number has not been stamped, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

There is more but you don't put vin tags from one vehicle on another and I can't believe it's any different in any other state either...JMHO
 
Sorry, I was tired. I went back and re-read it does look like I said it was legal here.
I meant to say it like I was questioning the policy which is why I included the patriot ideology .
It's not like you are taking parts off a stolen car or badly hacking together a wreck from junkyard body clips and badly spliced frames (which is the intent of the law)...
It's not like you are inventing a vin number and forging a title to create a vehicle the factory never built...
If you own both cars and they are both in your name and one of them is a rare model and the better one is not...
What fraud are you creating by using the sheet metal from the plain Jane to restore the more valuable car to what it was?
You're not creating a new car that did not previously exist
You're not misrepresenting a classic, the 57 Bel Air you would be restoring has always been a 57 Bel Air.
The 4 door shell is same enough as the 2 door shell that the finished result would be industry standard or better.
As a matter of fact:
It would be much safer car than cobbling up the holes by welding patches to Swiss cheese
And whoever buys it from you in the future would be getting a safer car that has been restored to original perfection and continues to meet MFG standards that "The 57 Quilt" would not.
Who is the victim?
Where is the harm?
If you can prove you're on the up and up and are willing to have the project inspected by an expert why can't you enjoy your rights?
Why does the law have to deprive you of your rights or force you to devalue the project with a "reconstructed vehicle" title designed to warn the public of a lower quality questionable repair?
Because someone else might commit a crime doing something related to the process you are using but not to the same result or for the same reason?

I overheard this a%%hat at the truck stop butting in on the conversation a few drivers were having about their car projects.
without any ability to have inspected their cars this guy comes out and says these rebuilt and modified cars don't belong on the road.
This guy was a total Uncle Tom saying no-one but an ASE certified expert should work on your car and when it's done it should be crushed.

The guys were pretty knowledgeable, courteous and were trying to justify their work and every time one of these guys exhibited they knew what the proper procedure was for each repair or modification the goon came back with "So you think"
The most insulting thing about it was I was one of them and this guy couldn't change his own tire.
I told him "How can you say that? The Mfg didn't do everything right..they took shortcuts to save a few bucks and their engineers know something will not never fail, they just make sure it doesn't fail within the parameters with a safety factor of 2 or 4 or more depending on the safety necessity of the part or the work ...
So if your work and design exceeds the mfg standard how is it not road worthy?
The ultimate goal for safety and quality justifying the work is "Industry standard or better"
to which he again replied "so you think"

It ain't right people just ain't right, maybe they just ain't smart enough regarding what they are legislating about to get it right.
 
quick question.

How did we get on topic of swaping a VIN Tag? I didn't read anywhere in that story where he had done that.....

HOUSTON we do have a problem
AW yea there's a problem with his vin tag
He titled the car as an authentic 32 ford and insured it for 70 grand and after looking at the documentation for his project the police said "hey...he lied getting it titled" it is built from scratch, It should have been a home built title.
The cops are suspecting insurance fraud.

The most important detail about getting away with something is getting away with it [ddd
 
so was the entire body built from scratch?? That is not what I picked up on from reading the story...... It sounded to me like he did what anyone restoring one does, found original parts to replace the rotted ones.
 
It's actually a fiberglass coupe body that he grafted an original steel firewall into to make it look more original.

I'll come right out and admit that when he first posted about it being stolen 1% of me felt something wasn't right, but the 99% of me didn't want to believe that someone I had met at a couple of shows, and who seemed like a nice young family guy, could do something like this. So I went with the high road and continued to post things, trying to help keep the car on people's minds and get it found. What raised my antennas was the fact he seemed less concerned about finding it than everyone else who was outraged. His posts were very bland and distant....pretty much one liners that were "My car was stolen when I was away for 4 days."

On the other subject, how the car was "fraudulently titled and registered", if we are honest, most of the cars we see at a car show would probably be guilty of the same offense if we put them under a microscope. Maybe not cars like 48 and up Fords, because those generally come with a title, but I am talking about a hot rod or rat rod that we hobbyists build in our home garage from parts we score from places like CL, Ebay, swap meets, and from friends. Those parts do not come with receipts normally, and that type of car will have parts from 10 different makes and models, if not more.

Let's say you start with a model a frame and you are lucky enough to get a title with it. But then you modify it with crossmembers and Z the back. Now it is no longer original, and even less so when you put a sbc engine in it, a later rear end, and a body that you salvaged from a rusted out heap. At that point, according to what the charges are in this case, that title you have and used to get the car on the road is no longer worth the paper it is written on. Even the aforementioned 48 Ford could fall under the category of not being original if you put a Nova clip, sbc, and 9 inch rear under it.

So I see this case as two different aspects......1) If he did participate in the theft, and 2) If his car was titled and insured any different than tons of people in this hobby do theirs. To me the second part smells of a witch hunt, and should be of concern to every rodder out there whose car is titled and insured.

Don
 
It's actually a fiberglass coupe body that he grafted an original steel firewall into to make it look more original.

OK I am with you now. That was the part that I had lost somewhere. So yes, it is definitely not worth $70k and he should not be entitled to anything even close to that.

So I see this case as two different aspects......1) If he did participate in the theft, and 2) If his car was titled and insured any different than tons of people in this hobby do theirs. To me the second part smells of a witch hunt, and should be of concern to every rodder out there whose car is titled and insured.

Don

I generally try to give people the benefit of the doubt, not as much as I used to, but I still try not to call some one a liar right off the bat unless FACTS are staring me straight the face saying thats what is happening. Other wise I try to wait for the proven guilty. I am not going to pick sides yet, but it seems like the bigger issue to me is your second part Don. Since my truck is more pieced together that is what scares me the most.
 
I still believe in the old adage "Innocent til proven guilty". The insurance company demands an appraisal to insure the car, some appraiser didn't know what he was looking at?..arrest the appraiser for fraud. The newspapers love to convict in print and the cops love to file a multitude of charges hoping you'll cop a plea to a lesser charge so they don't have to prove the crime in court. "Racketeering"?? ..give me a break!!..:mad:
 
all the collecter car insurance companys i've dealt with. you pay on a the amount the car was valued at. he was paying for 70,000 worth of insurance.
 
On the other subject, how the car was "fraudulently titled and registered", if we are honest, most of the cars we see at a car show would probably be guilty of the same offense if we put them under a microscope.

So I see this case as two different aspects......1) If he did participate in the theft, and 2) If his car was titled and insured any different than tons of people in this hobby do theirs. To me the second part smells of a witch hunt, and should be of concern to every rodder out there whose car is titled and insured.

Don

Thanks Don, you got what I was trying to say much clearer.
 
If a person was paying for 70k worth of insurance they should get 70k of insurance. IMO the insurer is just as guilty for taking his money if they aren't prepared to pay out 70k. Especially if they had agreed upon a value.
 
True 21Willys. If you reverse the line of thinking, the insurance company should have investigated the car as thoroughly before they agreed to insure it. Seems to me the company should have verified what they were insuring before - negligence on their part? Probably all comes down to who has more money for lawyers. I wonder if having an agent of the company inspect your hot rod before a contract is sign would limit the fraud BS they could try to push in the event a claim were made.

The hole in the wall thing still sounds iffy to me.
 
Oh, I agree 100% about Grundy not having totally clean hands in this mess. All they do is ask you what you think the car is worth then they get on their little computer and come up with the yearly rate for that amount. You send them pictures and they "agree" to that value if they like what they see. IMO they took his money and are now crying foul........not cool on their part.

It has me rethinking my coverage with them. I may switch to Haggerty next renewal time. I realize they won't put up with insurance fraud, but I think they were all too eager to bail out on this one when the guy still hasn't had his day in court.

Don
 
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If a person was paying for 70k worth of insurance they should get 70k of insurance. IMO the insurer is just as guilty for taking his money if they aren't prepared to pay out 70k. Especially if they had agreed upon a value.

agreed

True 21Willys. If you reverse the line of thinking, the insurance company should have investigated the car as thoroughly before they agreed to insure it. Seems to me the company should have verified what they were insuring before - negligence on their part? Probably all comes down to who has more money for lawyers. I wonder if having an agent of the company inspect your hot rod before a contract is sign would limit the fraud BS they could try to push in the event a claim were made.

I also think that they should verify the car themselves before signing contracts.
 

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