1952 F-6 Build

[Dr Crankenstein]

Your good humor and ability to face adversity is truly inspirational! Good work, Sir![cl

But then my wife would tell you that I am never satisfied with anything that I do.

My wife would say, "too much is better than not enough" but I'm not sure how to take that. (She's never seen me paint a car. [S )

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[Torchie]

Your good humor and ability to face adversity is truly inspirational! Good work, Sir![cl



My wife would say, "too much is better than not enough" but I'm not sure how to take that. (She's never seen me paint a car. [S )

.

Thanks DR. I do the best that I can.......
On the clutch/pressure plate front. I heard from my auto parts guy that he has a PP coming tomorrow. My research shows that there are two 11" truck PP that are designated for 1948-64. They each have a different part number but the only difference that I can find specs for are in the distance between the fingers that the throw out bearing makes contact with. His supplier only shows one and as it is a aftermarket part the number is totally different. If the one that comes tomorrow turns out to be the same as what I have I will have to order the other one from a restoration supplier.
Torchie

 

[Torchie]

Nothing good to report here on the PP/clutch issue.
The one my parts guy got isn't even close to being right. And the adapter people will sell me all new stuff to the tune of about $$$$$$.
I went with this over my Flathead because it was a runner and this conversion was time tested and a bolt in. For everyone but me.....
I have spent the last week on the phone as well as internet searching and still haven't gotten the answers to what the problem is. Not to mention all the time I spent prior to this finding parts and pieces. All the parts I have are SUPPOSED to be the correct ones.
I am expecting to have some help over tonight and if we can't get the PP/clutch issue sorted out I may just put the engine back in so that at least I can move ahead on the body work.
All very frustrating.
Torchie

 

[Bamamav]

What about the "experts" over on the PORK? I figure there should be somebody over there that knows what you need Torchie. Contrary bunch over there sometimes, but a lot of knowledge if you can get by the BS....

 

[Torchie]

What about the "experts" over on the PORK? I figure there should be somebody over there that knows what you need Torchie. Contrary bunch over there sometimes, but a lot of knowledge if you can get by the BS....

That's part of the people that I have been talking with Bama. Including a guy in Texas that just did this swap.This was a fairly common swap back in the day.
It consists of using an early(Closed drive shaft) Ford trans. 11" 1948 Ford PP and disc bolted up to a Olds Rocket fly wheel. Then using a Wilcap or Offy adapter and pilot bearing to mate the block to the trans housing.
Bolt pattern on the Olds fly wheel matches the bolt pattern on the 48 Ford 11" truck PP.
These are all the parts that I have.
When I put it all together and tighten down the PP bolts it draws the 3 PP fingers all the way down allowing for no travel. These PP were set at the factory so there is no way to adjust the fingers. Plus when I bolt the tranny on to the engine the engine won't turn over. As if something is having clearance issue .
The only thing that I can figure is that I have the wrong 11' Pressure plate.
It's got me stumped and as my funds are tight(As always) I just can't go around ordering parts in hopes of them fitting.
The other way that this swap has been done it to go with a Merc 10" PP and disc and have the fly wheel redrilled to match that PP bolt pattern.
Well i will keep at it. I guess if it was easy everyone would do it.
Here is a link to my thread on THAT other site.
Torchie
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/324-olds-to-early-ford-trans.955275/

 

[Dr Crankenstein]

As if something is having clearance issue .

Definitely.

Could it be... you have the disc backwards?

You should be able to "press" the loose disc to the flywheel, have full contact with the flywheel face and turn it (by hand) with no resistance, except for friction on the contact area. (A pilot shaft would serve this experiment well.)

The same should occur when pressed to the loose PP, though I suspect the clutch disc is "pinched" and/or hung on the crank bolts.

I'd also compare your current flywheel to the old flatty 'wheel. "One of these things is not like the other". The assembly should screw to both flywheels with the same effect on the fingers.

My babbling may be redundant and completely useless, but I hope you find the problem and the cure!

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[Torchie]

Definitely.

Could it be... you have the disc backwards?

You should be able to "press" the loose disc to the flywheel, have full contact with the flywheel face and turn it (by hand) with no resistance, except for friction on the contact area. (A pilot shaft would serve this experiment well.)

The same should occur when pressed to the loose PP, though I suspect the clutch disc is "pinched" and/or hung on the crank bolts.

I'd also compare your current flywheel to the old flatty 'wheel. "One of these things is not like the other". The assembly should screw to both flywheels with the same effect on the fingers.

My babbling may be redundant and completely useless, but I hope you find the problem and the cure!

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No babbling there at all Dr. I agree with all that you said. And have done it as well.
My first thought was that I've really gone round the bend and put the disc in backwards. But since it is marked "Fly Wheel Side and wasn't in back wards when I took it all apart again I eliminated that. The disc seems to not be the issue.
I still have the fly wheel from the flathead and did just what you said with the PP. And the fingers are still drawing down to far.The problem is that it has been so long since I removed it from the flat head that I can't remember if it was doing this all along or not. Which leads me to believe that I have the wrong PP. The problem is that the one that I have is not stamped or marked in any way but from the specs that I have been able to scrounge up it appears to match the one that I need.
The flathead set up was a pieced together deal from a guy that had a ton of parts so who knows what he used.
It could very easily be the wrong PP.
At this point I just need to take a break from the whole mess and let it lay for a day or two. Maybe something will jump out and slap me in the face...... [cl
Thanks for the ideas....
Torchie

 

[christcrusader13]

Keep after it buddy.... you will figure it out!

 

[MercuryMac]

Torchie, Here's some more babbling, to add to Dr C's. What if the factory riveted the hub in your friction disc backwards so the face of the clutch is the right way but the hub has it's long snout frontwards,, or simpler yet, they stamped the 'flywheel side' stamp on the wrong side?
If you put a washer under each bolt hole in the circumference of the pressure plate and then put the bolts in, you could see if the fingers had enough travel or would you have to add another washer to each bolt? If you're squeamish about leaving the washers in there, you, at least now have the right thickness to make a shim for under the outside of the PP, so the fingers have enough travel to release the friction disc.
You may also have to add washers between the transmission and bellhousing until you can turn the motor over nicely, so you get to know how much you need to whack off the end of the pilot shaft.
This is all 'hotroding' at its best. Keep forging ahead, Torchie.

 

[Bamamav]

I've been scratchin' my head on this one myself.[S If the clutch disc was backwards, it would hold the PP off the flywheel I think. I was taught the long hub goes to the rear, no matter how it's marked. Does the clutch sit flat on the flywheel, as in the hub not holding it off any? If it sits flat, I got to agree something is up with the PP. It may be for a recessed flywheel, so it would run out of room when installed on a flat flywheel. MercuryMac's idea of putting some shims between the flywheel and PP and tightening it down to see if it gives you any travel would confirm this. Now as to which PP you actually need, I don't have a clue.

 

[Torchie]

Torchie, Here's some more babbling, to add to Dr C's. What if the factory riveted the hub in your friction disc backwards so the face of the clutch is the right way but the hub has it's long snout frontwards,, or simpler yet, they stamped the 'flywheel side' stamp on the wrong side?
If you put a washer under each bolt hole in the circumference of the pressure plate and then put the bolts in, you could see if the fingers had enough travel or would you have to add another washer to each bolt? If you're squeamish about leaving the washers in there, you, at least now have the right thickness to make a shim for under the outside of the PP, so the fingers have enough travel to release the friction disc.
You may also have to add washers between the transmission and bellhousing until you can turn the motor over nicely, so you get to know how much you need to whack off the end of the pilot shaft.
This is all 'hotroding' at its best. Keep forging ahead, Torchie.

I've been scratchin' my head on this one myself.[S If the clutch disc was backwards, it would hold the PP off the flywheel I think. I was taught the long hub goes to the rear, no matter how it's marked. Does the clutch sit flat on the flywheel, as in the hub not holding it off any? If it sits flat, I got to agree something is up with the PP. It may be for a recessed flywheel, so it would run out of room when installed on a flat flywheel. MercuryMac's idea of putting some shims between the flywheel and PP and tightening it down to see if it gives you any travel would confirm this. Now as to which PP you actually need, I don't have a clue.

All good thoughts as well from both of you but unfortunately as the youth of America would say."Been there and done that" but I didn't get the T-shirt.[ddd
I have laid the Disc up against the flywheel while it is is bolted to the crank and after a slight dressing up of the pilot bearing end it does sit flat..
Long hub of the disc does point towards the rear(away from flywheel and towards the trans). So it appears not to be miss marked.
I have seriously considered the use of some grade 8 washers as shims. I know that there are those that see this as a bomb in the making but many racing PP/clutch set up's require the use of shims. Plus I am already using grade 8 bolts for the PP. But to the best of my info if all the parts are right no shimming should be needed.
The stock Olds and Caddy Fly wheels had a lip around them (out side of the PP mounting bolt holes) but to my knowledge they were not "Stepped".
The pilot bearing length could be an issue that causes the engine to lock up after the trans is bolted on but given the the disc lays flat against the wheel I'm not sure about that yet. And it would't affect the PP finger travel anyway.

All in all it's a [S for sure.

With the Flathead flywheel laying flat on a bench and the disc laying flat on top of it. When I set the PP on top of the disc and fly wheel there is 1/4 of an inch space before the PP is drawn down tight to the fly wheel. Seems like a large gap to me. Any thoughts.
Also any pro's or con's about shimming the PP.
As always I appreciated every ones input and please continue to contribute.
"Hot rodding at it's best" LOL That's exactly what I told the young bloods that have been helping me Mac

Torchie.....

p.s.

Pics show the gap without and then with washers.

 

[Dr Crankenstein]

Are the fingers at the absolute end of their travel? (I wonder if there's anything left.) What happens if you shim and fatten the disc... say 1/8" and screw the PP down? Will the fingers depress any further?

In my mind, your motor should turn with the trans in neutral... clutch engaged, disengaged or frozen... unless the PP interferes with the bellhousing... or as Mac said, the input shaft is severely bound.

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[Torchie]

Are the fingers at the absolute end of their travel? (I wonder if there's anything left.) What happens if you shim and fatten the disc... say 1/8" and screw the PP down? Will the fingers depress any further?

In my mind, your motor should turn with the trans in neutral... clutch engaged, disengaged or frozen... unless the PP interferes with the bellhousing... or as Mac said, the input shaft is severely bound.

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I agree with your thoughts about the motor turning Dr.
It is either the PP hitting the housing or the shaft. When I pulled it apart I saw no obvious marks inside the housing. Now this is where it gets really confusing.
Even though i have had people tell me that have done this conversion that they use the 11' Ford 1948 disc and PP and Wilcap adapter with no problems. As well a having seen instruction sheets that show this.I have heard from a couple others that claim that Wilcap told them that there COULD be clearance issues with the above set up. Which they have never said to me. Makes no sense as every early style (Pre 1949) trans has the exact same size bell housing. So what the heck ??????
Wilcap also claim that the disc and PP that I am using are so old and worn and out of spec that they will never fit right. The disc is stamped as a rebuilt and I would bet my real leg that although it was installed it was never run. And There is absolutely no wear marks on the PP as well. Old. yes. Dirty yes. But worn. I think not.
As far as the finger travel goes it looks to me that the finger have reached the end of their travel length. If you look at the picture below you will see how far down the fingers are drawn. And if you look close at the outside of the plate cover were the centrifugal weights come thru you will see that they are real close to the inner edge of the opening. So no more room for travel there. They don't even come close to touching the throw out bearing. Even with the pedal pushed down to the floor.

My next move is going to be to bolt the disc and PP back up to the Olds fly wheel and then fit the empty trans case that I have up to the adapter. With the case empty I will be able to better see if the PP is binding. Trying to eliminate one issue at at time.
The mystery continues.............
Torchie

 

[Old Iron]

Looks like to me the clutch facing is too thick.

 

[Torchie]

Looks like to me the clutch facing is too thick.

Not to sound like a Know-it -all but I have had that same thought as well OI.
Disc is stamped Rebuilt and i have seen more than one rebuilt disc that comes back thicker than original.
I may just go the cheaper route and start by ordering a new disc. I do have the supposed specs for the correct friction disc thickness. I will find my calipers and check that out tomorrow. I was also considering having the PP face surface turned as well. Does anyone even do that anymore???
Torchie

 

[Old Iron]

Universal Joint Specialists
2527 E KEARNEY ST
Springfield, MO 65803
(417) 869-0703
These guys have been friends of mine for a long time.
They've been in business forever. Mark and Barry grew up doing this as their dad started this company.
Ask for Mark
There may even be an adjustment, to the PP, they can do for that problem.
You can send Mark the same pic you just posted and he can most likely tell you what is needed. Tell him, Jim Hunt said to call.

 

[Torchie]

Universal Joint Specialists
2527 E KEARNEY ST
Springfield, MO 65803
(417) 869-0703
These guys have been friends of mine for a long time.
They've been in business forever. Mark and Barry grew up doing this as their dad started this company.
Ask for Mark
There may even be an adjustment, to the PP, they can do for that problem.
You can send Mark the same pic you just posted and he can most likely tell you what is needed. Tell him, Jim Hunt said to call.

Thanks OI. Will do.
Who the heck is Jim Hunt ???????[ddd
Torchie

 

[Old Iron]

An alias they gave me for witness protection
This message will self destruct in 4 seconds

 

[Dr Crankenstein]

Just in case "Jim Hunt"s guy is closed today...

Gleaned from flatheadv8.org

11'' disc should be .356 thick. They claim a friction disc is too soft to set finger height and solid plate should be used. (Everybody has a .356 steel plate lying around, don't they? )

Torque this magical plate and PP to the flywheel. Adjust finger bolts to 7/8'' from the top of the PP cover - tolerance .010.

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[Old Iron]

Just in case "Jim Hunt"s guy is closed today...

Gleaned from flatheadv8.org

11'' disc should be .356 thick. They claim a friction disc is too soft to set finger height and solid plate should be used. (Everybody has a .356 steel plate lying around, don't they? )

Torque this magical plate and PP to the flywheel. Adjust finger bolts to 7/8'' from the top of the PP cover - tolerance .010.

.

Nice find Dr C [cl [cl [cl
No he won't be there today