Old Iron
Well-known member
[P[P[P
I'm Gonna Build A Dragster!
- Thread starter bob w
- Start date
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old28
Well-known member
Well Bob both Me & Dixie thank you for the nice words. Now for the intake modification. I new you would try something and I got to say that at 140 cu in for a starting point with 165 with 1/4" spacer should be great. You have done a great job on the flow direction and the bottom & sides should flow real well.
I still hope you test each carb on your 4 barrel intake with a aluminum adapter for the 2100 carb. This way you know for sure each one is right. As for the plenum size the dragster will tell you if it starts to fall on it's face on the top end. Two main things that affect this are two small plenum or two small carbs. On one of FTF altered roadsters he runs dual 2100 1.01 or 1.02 and the car is not very strong on the top end, but he has one of his grandkids in the seat so he has not changed them.
As you have a pair of 2100 1.14 on the shelf you can rebuild them & try a little more carb with the 140 plenum before you make a spacer to step up to 165 cu in. Nice to have a few combinations to work with.[P
Great looking EFI Dual Carb Plenum.[
I still hope you test each carb on your 4 barrel intake with a aluminum adapter for the 2100 carb. This way you know for sure each one is right. As for the plenum size the dragster will tell you if it starts to fall on it's face on the top end. Two main things that affect this are two small plenum or two small carbs. On one of FTF altered roadsters he runs dual 2100 1.01 or 1.02 and the car is not very strong on the top end, but he has one of his grandkids in the seat so he has not changed them.
As you have a pair of 2100 1.14 on the shelf you can rebuild them & try a little more carb with the 140 plenum before you make a spacer to step up to 165 cu in. Nice to have a few combinations to work with.[P
Great looking EFI Dual Carb Plenum.[
old28
Well-known member
And Bob, "smallened" it sounds right on to me, you, and I am sure most others on this site, but spelling has not been one of my strong points. Dixie spends a lot of time correcting mine & she says "smallened" will be a little hard to look up. Good Holiday wishes from both of us. [cl[cl
bob w
Still crazy after all these years!
Yes, I've still got the dragster. There's a new high stall converter in there between the engine and trans. Also, I had the header jet-hot coated this winter. Getting ready for the season, now that the cold, rainy weather has departed. Yesterday two friends, Dave and Jerry came over and helped this old man put the car together. Should be able to give it a few driveway blasts in a few days.
What do you experts run for oil in your high performance engines with flat tappet cams?
What do you experts run for oil in your high performance engines with flat tappet cams?
Attachments
Old Iron
Well-known member
I use Valvoline Racing 20-50 with a bottle of Comp Cams zinc additive
05snopro440
Well-known member
Glad to see you're still at it Bob!
old28
Well-known member
Well Bob, nice to see her back together [cl. Looking forward to driveway tests to see how that new converter works out, got to be better.
OK, one change at a time, but get that first race done so we can try that 2x2 plenum on the rail !!!!!!!
Bamamav
Well-known member
Bob, we ran Av gas back in the 1980's a few times. Buddy had a hot 383 stroker Chevy, something like 12:1 compression. We'd mix the AV gas with premium unleaded about 50/50. It seemed to make a bit more HP and ET was some lower too IIRC. Even back then it was cheaper than race gas. You just had to put it in a can, couldn't pump it direct into the car because of no road taxes on it. Nobody ever asked what we were doing with it, but if they had we were gonna tell them we had a small ultralight plane that needed it.[ddd
That Camaro never left the ground, but it could fly!
That Camaro never left the ground, but it could fly!
Dr Crankenstein
Rocket Surgeon
You might find this interesting, bob. (Clipped from the 'net, somewhere. [S)
Key points:
-100LL is not 100 octane as we rate it for pump gas (R+M/2). It is actually ~96 octane by that measure.
-Quality and consistency is better than pump
-Shelf life is better than pump.
-Cheaper because you are not paying Road Taxes. Legally it's like running red dye... no no on the street.
-Lower Specific gravity than pump (density) means you actually run leaner with the same jetting.
-Important one here! Lower flame speed than race gas. 100LL is designed for 3500RPM operation. If you run consistently higher than that you will be spitting unburnt fuel out the pipe. Most pre-run or play cars don't spend too much time over 3500RPM
Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...
My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.
Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.
In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.
The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.
AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 96, R+M/2 rating of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.
AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.
I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.
Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.
Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.
You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.
The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.
AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.
Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.
AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 96, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 96 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.
Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.
Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.
.
Key points:
-100LL is not 100 octane as we rate it for pump gas (R+M/2). It is actually ~96 octane by that measure.
-Quality and consistency is better than pump
-Shelf life is better than pump.
-Cheaper because you are not paying Road Taxes. Legally it's like running red dye... no no on the street.
-Lower Specific gravity than pump (density) means you actually run leaner with the same jetting.
-Important one here! Lower flame speed than race gas. 100LL is designed for 3500RPM operation. If you run consistently higher than that you will be spitting unburnt fuel out the pipe. Most pre-run or play cars don't spend too much time over 3500RPM
Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...
My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.
Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.
In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.
The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.
AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 96, R+M/2 rating of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.
AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.
I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.
Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.
Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.
You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.
The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.
AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.
Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.
AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 96, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 96 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.
Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.
Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.
.
old28
Well-known member
Well that's great news, a few driveway shots to see if the convertor is a better match. Sounds a lot better.
My .02 worth on a couple of things.
1- Do not run power valves in your drag race carbs. As you are going to be leaving with the convertor around 2500-3500 rpm you will have all the fuel you need without power valves. They are needed for street when leaving from an idle for that extra shot on acceleration. What ever carb you decide to run plug off the PV.
2-- If the Holley stock jets are 71/72 going to 80 is a big jump, maybe try 74/76 & if it is a bit better try 76/78. I know jet changes are a pain in the xxx but once you get it right you should not have to mess with them again.
3-- When Me & Dixie ran our 65 BBC Corvette I used a 50/50 blend of AV gas & 91 octane. Worked real fine and that was a 454 carbed BBC around 600 HP. Just keep in mind that AVG tends to wash cylinder walls so use good race oil that works with alcohol so you will keep a good film in there.
I am sure the bog is a fuel problem, more than likely will be solved with the correct jets. To make the dragster leave at it's best you need to get up on the convertor as much as you can to be up on the leave RPM. I know you have not run a car with a transbrake before and it takes time getting used too. Just remember that the car ain't going to move no matter how high the RPM are if you have the TB button pressed down. Even if you foot brake the convertor to your max you will see a big improvement in your leave. Has Dave tried the driveway test with the TB? You had said he has used one before. You guys will love the new setup when you get it figured out.
Let me know what you come up with. I am no expert but this "old west coast suffer dude" did pickup a few things in 45+ drag race years. Keep at it.
My .02 worth on a couple of things.
1- Do not run power valves in your drag race carbs. As you are going to be leaving with the convertor around 2500-3500 rpm you will have all the fuel you need without power valves. They are needed for street when leaving from an idle for that extra shot on acceleration. What ever carb you decide to run plug off the PV.
2-- If the Holley stock jets are 71/72 going to 80 is a big jump, maybe try 74/76 & if it is a bit better try 76/78. I know jet changes are a pain in the xxx but once you get it right you should not have to mess with them again.
3-- When Me & Dixie ran our 65 BBC Corvette I used a 50/50 blend of AV gas & 91 octane. Worked real fine and that was a 454 carbed BBC around 600 HP. Just keep in mind that AVG tends to wash cylinder walls so use good race oil that works with alcohol so you will keep a good film in there.
I am sure the bog is a fuel problem, more than likely will be solved with the correct jets. To make the dragster leave at it's best you need to get up on the convertor as much as you can to be up on the leave RPM. I know you have not run a car with a transbrake before and it takes time getting used too. Just remember that the car ain't going to move no matter how high the RPM are if you have the TB button pressed down. Even if you foot brake the convertor to your max you will see a big improvement in your leave. Has Dave tried the driveway test with the TB? You had said he has used one before. You guys will love the new setup when you get it figured out.
Let me know what you come up with. I am no expert but this "old west coast suffer dude" did pickup a few things in 45+ drag race years. Keep at it.
Skip
Well-known member
This has been an educational morning. Thank you gentlemen. [cl
bob w
Still crazy after all these years!
Skip, just what I was going to say. You beat me to it. Thank you for all the great information guys.
Went to a show this morning and won't get anything done today cuz it's Father's Day, or something.
Went to a show this morning and won't get anything done today cuz it's Father's Day, or something.
old28
Well-known member
Any new dragster information? Any further driveway tests? Did you change carbs?
We all want to know [S[S[S
We all want to know [S[S[S
bob w
Still crazy after all these years!
Fuelwise, I found a station with 112 octane. I mixed 2 gallons of race gas with 3 gallons of 91 octane non-oxy gas. Next time I'll go 1 to 4. That should work with my compression ratio.
The carb seems good with the PV block off and 78 primary jets.
I did a couple driveway launches using the trans brake and about 3/4 throttle. Felt real good. The car is ready to hit the strip.
The carb seems good with the PV block off and 78 primary jets.
I did a couple driveway launches using the trans brake and about 3/4 throttle. Felt real good. The car is ready to hit the strip.
Last edited:
Torchie
Well-known member
old28
Well-known member
Well Bob all sounds good on the dragster end of things.[cl
Ok want to get this straight, are you running your 406 sbc carb or the Holley 3310 with PV caped & 78 primary jets?
Sounds like your getting the hang of using a transbrake. You will really find out what that 300 with a new convertor will do when you confident enough to hold that button down and put the peddle to the floor. Takes time.[cl but after you see the results you will never leave without it.
That fuel blend is much better than AV gas & 91 octane. With all the dirt tracks in your parts I would think there are a few stations that handle pump race gas. We had a few around us when we were in WA state.
When is the next race? Are you going to drive or is Dave?
Hang in there guys, glad it is coming together.
Ok want to get this straight, are you running your 406 sbc carb or the Holley 3310 with PV caped & 78 primary jets?
Sounds like your getting the hang of using a transbrake. You will really find out what that 300 with a new convertor will do when you confident enough to hold that button down and put the peddle to the floor. Takes time.[cl but after you see the results you will never leave without it.
That fuel blend is much better than AV gas & 91 octane. With all the dirt tracks in your parts I would think there are a few stations that handle pump race gas. We had a few around us when we were in WA state.
When is the next race? Are you going to drive or is Dave?
Hang in there guys, glad it is coming together.
bob w
Still crazy after all these years!
Tom, The carb is a 3310 off the Crosley (406) with PV block off and I jetted it down from 84 to 78 on the primaries. No bog when leaving on the button.
I'm going to have Dave do some driveway shots this week. He is much more aggressive than me. My neighborhood is very quiet so I don't like to make driveway noise too often.
One gallon of race gas to 4 gallons of 91 non-oxy gives me 94 octane which should be sufficient, right?
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