48 fire truck roadster

[DJ3100]

jfg455,

I really appreciate the info. I'm getting to the point where everything that's left has $$$$ attached. I have been looking at better 700R4s in the $2000 range, but $980 for the trans and converter is attractive - especially with your semi-blessing. I'm probably at a point where a cheap transmission is better than no transmission.

I think I can get higher stall speed converter for the same money.

Hughes Performance is in the area, I might check with them before I decide. I hate the thought of having to pay shipping from Summit or TCI and I don't really know which local shop to trust.

 

[DJ3100]

The transmission search is on hold while I figure out the engine issues. The engine is a 1998 454 with about 90K miles and has been sitting for at least 3 years.

I've been working on engines for about a week and I'm not having fun. I'm really out of my element and practical knowledge. Any advice would be welcomed.

I pulled the plugs; they were the right color and all the same, so no bad news there. Next I tried to turn the engine over with a wrench, but it wouldn't move. Put penetrant and oil in the spark plug holes and waited a couple days , still frozen.

Today, pulled the pan and put penetrant and oil in from the bottom. In about 10 minutes I could turn it. But not all the way around. It stops in both directions with a little less than 1/4 of the rotation left. I marked the harmonic dampener and it stops in exactly the same place every time. Nothing obvious in the valve train, crank or rods.

Ron (my adviser when it comes to any thing mechanical) thinks it might be stopping on a rust ridge and to put more oil in the cylinders and have patience. I guess if that doesn't work, it's not the big a deal to pull the heads, but I'm trying to avoid that.

The pan looked pretty clean with some sludge.

The engine didn't have any evidence of water in the oil, but there is lots of coked oil on the valve train. It wipes off, but it's solid. I'm not sure how to get rid of it without it ending up in a lifter, pushrod or bearing.

 

[Tim...Ok]

Probably just surface rust from sitting with open valves thats causing it to stop at the same place..keep oiling it and trying to turn it..try to get just a little more everytime you get to the tight spot..just don't force it.. patience grasshoppa

Nice to see its a 4 bolt main, not really needed, but a nice bonus..

 

[Dirtyrat]

I used both marvel mystery oil, and a rust penetrant when I freed up the Hemi I bought.
It does take a while to get things freed up sometimes...

 

[bob w]

For the price of a gasket set, I'd take it apart, clean everything and make sure it is ready to provide reliable service. If the cylinders are rusty they should at least be honed with a glaze breaker.

 

[DJ3100]

For the price of a gasket set, I'd take it apart, clean everything and make sure it is ready to provide reliable service. If the cylinders are rusty they should at least be honed with a glaze breaker.

Thanks guys.

Bob W, You're right; that's the choice that will make me feel best about this project. Even if I do get it to turn I won't feel confident with the engine.

I'll pull the heads and have them vatted and re-sealed. That way I can evaluate the cylinders and not have to worry about the coked oil getting where it doesn't belong.

 

[earthman]

Dan i am surprised. I would have thought a machinist would love the opportunity to take apart a motor, measure everything and put it back together even better than the factory. (and you will)

 

[jfg455]

+2 on at least popping the heads off and looking to see what is up. A quick valve clean up and re-seal on the heads. Maybe check the bearings while the pan is off. if it is all good then button it back up and run it! [P

 

[DJ3100]

Dan i am surprised. I would have thought a machinist would love the opportunity to take apart a motor, measure everything and put it back together even better than the factory. (and you will)

Nope, I'm just like you when the Ford had head issues. It takes a while to accept the reality.

 

[DJ3100]

+2 on at least popping the heads off and looking to see what is up. A quick valve clean up and re-seal on the heads. Maybe check the bearings while the pan is off. if it is all good then button it back up and run it! [P

Yeah, the heads are coming off tomorrow. Hopefully valve seals and run it. Well maybe rear seal....

Actually my first problem was sticker shock over the gaskets, I'm over that now. And I won't have the drive train in by Saturday, but I knew that was too good to be true.

 

[DJ3100]

How to spend a grand - and feel good about it.

The offending cylinder is on the left.

A few minutes with the die grinder and a surface conditioning disc cleaned up the pistons and gasket surface.

I took the heads to a machine shop to get vatted out and have the seals installed. I ended up having them do a valve job, magnaflux and seals. $155 sounded like good insurance.

Talked to them about the block. They suggested that if the rust ridge was bad enough, honing wouldn't clean up the cylinder without taking it oversize . They can sleeve for $50 and I'd still be able to use the same pistons. They can vat the block for $60, hone the cylinders for $44. And so on to include r and r cam bearings, polish crank, rings, freeze plugs, magnaflux until it gets to $406 + $155 for the heads. Which doesn't sound bad for a rebuilt engine. Of course, parts, including bearings, rings and gaskets, add another $380. But I'll need to spend about $250 on just the gaskets anyway.

 

[truckster]

Dan i am surprised. I would have thought a machinist would love the opportunity to take apart a motor, measure everything and put it back together even better than the factory. (and you will)

x2

Just wondering when that got in there? Probably had a storm blow some rain in under my lean-to early on when it was on the engine stand, but then again who knows? Did you have it outside? Seems that with the intake on it would be hard to get water in there.

Glad you know what you have. Ends the guessing. And, like Earthman says, when you get through it will be better than factory. Can't believe you didn't price balancing and blueprinting, but then you will probably do that yourself, just knowing how much work you put into changing over the motor mounts to get rid of potential vibration issues.

 

[DJ3100]

No no no, to balancing and blueprinting. Bob W had the right idea - "Serviceable". Stock is plenty good and rebuilt stock sound great! We're still looking at almost 400 hp and torque in an under 3500 pound roadster with 5.13 gears and skinny tires, ok, there 4 skinny tires to smoke, but still.... spending money to get something more seems pointless.

I had it covered and under a mostly enclosed carport. Truckster had the same thing. However, the injectors were missing - so 8 holes into the manifold. It has been sitting for more than 3 years that we know about. Maybe 5 or more altogether?

I'm more concerned with the coked up oil. That seems like it was running hot or being overworked. I need to get all those chunks out just to have some confidence in it.

 

[DJ3100]

By the way, You guys gotta quit calling me nasty names like machinist.

 

[AZ4GEMAN]

DJ:
Sounds like you are on the right track. It was a crap shoot with a used engine to begin with. The best you could have hoped for was to pull out a good runner with good compression, oil pressure, no leak down and put it into service right away. Having it sit around for 3+ years without prepping it for storage probably contributed to the problems you found when you opened her up.
I have been turning mine over and running it about every six months or so. I hope not to have the problems you encountered. It is about time to run her again so I'd better get her back on the ground and fired up.
---"Too many "but firsts" .

The rebuilt stocker will give you confidence and probably more miles than you will ever put on it. More than you wanted to spend but what else can you do?

 

[DJ3100]

How to turn a $1000 into $2000

Yeah, what I was hoping for was to have it start and run with no smoke and turn a blind eye to the internal condition - unrealistic for an unknown engine that has been sitting for years.

The deeper I went into the engine the worse it got:

One lifter had a spalled roller. Here's what it did to that cam lobe. So, the cam is toast. Maybe they can get a used cam for $50-$80. An aftermarket cam pretty much means new lifters and maybe valve springs and another $500 (SBC cam and lifters are about half as much as BBC.)

The machinist put "polish crank" on the list, but I didn't think that would be necessary - it is. At least it's got 4 bolt mains and is probably worth the effort.

The the rusted up cylinder will need to be sleeved and the upper ring is stuck on its piston. That piston may be toast. If so, for a little more money, I can get all the holes bored and put in new pistons.

I can't imagine what the next bad news will be.

 

[truckster]

so it is basically just a core engine? Too late to open up the "80 futher and see what is involved in rebuilding it? Cheaper?

 

[DJ3100]

so it is basically just a core engine? Too late to open up the "80 futher and see what is involved in rebuilding it? Cheaper?

No, the cylinder walls are scored about the same amount, so probably the crank would need to be polished as well. There was even more carbon in it. Probably needs rings and it is already bored to the max - .060 over. It doesn't have a roller cam and needs at least 2 lifters - probably all.

I already committed to machining the 98 - it's at the machine shop. Should get the full evaluation Wednesday or Thursday. I have an inquiry in to Comp cams to see what they would recommend for a cam that would use stock springs and maybe lifters and would fit the application.

I'm still hoping to be all in for less than $2000, which is reasonable for a like new BBC.

 

[DJ3100]

The mission for today is to find out if I can make the 4L80 fit without too much alteration. I think a 4L80 with a manual shift valve body would be safer than a built 700R4 that really isn't "built" enough.

Doug and I went to Hughes Performance and their information agreed with jfg455's. So while the $980 700R4 will "probably be fine", a 4L80 would be a better fit for the application.

Plus I have a factory flexplate, converter and starter that for the 4L80. So I would be know it was compatible.

 

[Neverdone]

I think the 4L80 would be the better choice anyway...